[B-Greek] Greek Middle vs. Reflexive in various other languages
Vasile Stancu
stancu.c.vasile at gmail.com
Mon Jan 10 01:04:15 EST 2011
Hi, Mark,
My question would be related to the formation of the middle
'originally', if I may put it like that: not necessarily by combining
forms that pre-existed independently, but by adding to the verb
something whose role was to be similar to that of a pronoun. In fact,
pronouns are designators of 'self' in various positions; middle voice
is forcing the verb to get closer to 'self'. There should (or, at
least, could) be some natural/logical development of that.
Vasile
2011/1/9 Mark Lightman <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>:
> Vasile wrote
>
> <In fact, who can tell that the -μαι -MAI of the Greek middle is not in
> fact a particle whose role is that of a pronoun? It sounds as if it
> were an enclitic like the -μοι -MOI or the -με -ME in other instances.
> (This question was meant to be rhetorical, but maybe there is somebody
> who can tell it; in that case, please do tell it).>
>
> Hi, Vasile,
>
> Are you asking whether at some earlier stage of pre-historic Greek, MAI SAI
> TAI were separate words that were detached from the verb?
>
>
>
> Mark L
>
>
> FWSFOROS MARKOS
>
> ________________________________
> From: Vasile Stancu <stancu.c.vasile at gmail.com>
> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Fri, January 7, 2011 9:15:34 AM
> Subject: [B-Greek] Greek Middle vs. Reflexive in various other languages
>
> 'Various other languages' is, for me, for the moment, Romanian again,
> and I hope you all bear a little bit more with me using it as a basis
> for my explanations.
>
> In my language, the reflexive verbs are conjugated according to the
> active pattern, but they are always accompanied by reflexive pronouns
> in the accusative or dative. Eversince I encountered the Greek middle,
> I had the tendency to associate the Greek -μαι -MAI, -σαι -SAI, -ται
> -TAI, etc. terminations with the Romanian MĂ TE SE reflexive pronouns.
> The only difference in my imagination was that the former ones are
> placed at the end of the words while the latter usually before them. I
> say 'usually' because it is not at all uncommon to place them after
> the verb. For instance, I say:
>
> 'MĂ DUC' = ἔρχομαι ERXOMAI = I go
>
> Equally, I can say, just reshuffling the pronoun and verb (the 'U'
> in-between has just an euphonic role):
>
> 'DUCU-MĂ = the same... (this arrangement sounds somewhat archaic, or
> poetical)
>
> When I place the reflexive pronoun after the verb, I feel there is no
> difference between the Greek middle and the Romanian reflexive.
>
> In fact, who can tell that the -μαι -MAI of the Greek middle is not in
> fact a particle whose role is that of a pronoun? It sounds as if it
> were an enclitic like the -μοι -MOI or the -με -ME in other instances.
> (This question was meant to be rhetorical, but maybe there is somebody
> who can tell it; in that case, please do tell it).
>
> Vasile Stancu
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