[B-Greek] TINAS in 2 Pet. 3:9
Carl Conrad
cwconrad2 at mac.com
Sat Jan 29 05:28:51 EST 2011
This very interesting message was clearly intended for the list, although sent, so far as I can tell, directly to me alone.
I do think he probably slipped up in referring to Paul as the author of the letter, but that's not central to his point.
On Jan 28, 2011, at 11:56 PM, Alastair Haines wrote:
> Dear BGreek people,
>
> discussions about indefinite pronouns always grab my attention.
> I enjoy an excuse to revist
> Martin Haspelmath, Indefinite Pronouns, Oxford studies in typology and linguistic theory, (OUP, 2001).
> http://books.google.com.au/books?id=M2gK50x8xNoC
>
> Rod and Carl, please correct me if I'm missing the key issue you're debating.
> It seems to me Rod leans towards reading TINES in 3:9 as <SPECIFIC>,
> with EMPAIKTAI as antecedent, based on semantic evidence in the broader context;
> whereas Carl is more open to a range of other possible readings.
>
> Here's a little from Haspelmath, that may explain why there is an issue with TINES in 2 Peter 3:9.
>
> "In some languages, different indefinite series are used depending on whether the NP is SPECIFIC or NON-SPECIFIC. The concept of specificity is a key concept in the semantics of reference and has been discussed extensively in the literature. There is no universal agreement on what phenomena fall under this concept." (37)
>
> Haspelmath does, however, provide an example sentence to illustrate what researchers do agree is the basic issue.
>
> * Nobuko wants to marry a native speaker of Ainu.
>
> This is ambiguous (in English) for SPECIFIC/NON-SPECIFIC readings: i.e. whether Nobuko wants to marry _a certain_ native speaker or whether any native speaker of Ainu will do. Of course, _both_ readings of the NP are indefinite, the ambiguity lies on the dimension of specificity.
>
> Is this not unlike TINES in 2 Peter 3:9?
>
> Perhaps Rod is correct to infer a specific antecedent given the considerable information available from prior context. Though it seems Carl is well supported by the literature in pushing Rod to retain the "burden of proof" in regard to his reading. Speaking only for myself, I read TINES in 2 Peter 3:9 as not only INDEFINITE, but _also_ NON-SPECIFIC. In other words, it doesn't refer to any antecedent discourse referent, it _introduces_ a new one: those (from among us or from among scoffers) who think the Lord is slow.
>
> Indeed, precisely the same "discourse logic" is at play (on my reading) in regard to TINAS. TINES and TINAS do _not_ "refer to the same antecedent", as has been pointed out by others on this list, since indefinite pronouns can (not must) function in non-referential ways (including as logical variables, or to introduce new discourse referents).
>
> It seems Paul uses the Greek indefinite pronoun for precisely the same reason in both cases in verse nine. He cannot rely on the inflected form of the verb alone, as that would suggest an extant antecedent. He cannot use AUTOS for similar reasons. Greek provides him with an indefinite pronoun to mark the introduction of two new (and once only) discourse referents: those (whoever they may be) who CURRENTLY think God is slow, and those (whoever they may be) who will perish IN FUTURE. Other languages would present the semantic propositions Paul wants to make according to different strategies. Here, Paul uses precisely the same Greek strategy twice in the same verse.
>
> I look forward to any corrections of matters of fact, or indications that I'm unclear in expressing the facts.
>
> Best regards,
> alastair
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Conrad" <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
> To: "Rod Rogers" <rngrogers at embarqmail.com>
> Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 10:06 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] TINAS in 2 Pet. 3:9
>
>
>>
>> On Jan 28, 2011, at 12:18 PM, Rod Rogers wrote:
>>
>>> Carl, I considered your comments. I'm sure that there are indefinite and relative pronouns which introduce a subject and probably have no antecedent or at least no clear one but there are plenty of verses in the NT where it is debated which is the antecedent and we have several (antecedents) to choose from. I wish you would have made comment on the fact that I was responding to George's post........which by nature included Renwick's post but you didn't.
>>>
>>> Yes, the (ORIGINAL) question raised was about TINAS in the MH BOULOMENOS clause rather than about the TINES of the hWS clause, but when you say "I would think that the TINAS of the MH BOULOMENOS clause ought to be seen not with reference to some specific persons but rather in antithesis to PANTAS, so that the paired objects of the two infinitives are TINAS and PANTAS, "any (persons)" and "all (persons)" or "anybody" and "everybody." I would have to disagree to some extent. TIS is used many times to describe/introduce an unknown group of "specific" bodies. The texts where we read "certain of the scribes" or "certain of the Pharisees" are all indefinite. If you have time for a good laugh you might watch Mark Kielar turn an (TIS) indefinite pronoun into a definite pronoun exegeting 2 Peter 3:9, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A5A8XBRVbw&feature=related
>>
>> But according to my dictionary "certain one" as an English equivalent of Greek TIS (τις) is "used when mentioning the name of someone not known to the reader or hearer."
>> As for this particular instance of TINAS in 2 Pet 3:9, the negation MH in BOULOMENOS TINAS APOLESQAI doesn't mean "doesn't want certain unnamed individuals to perish" but means rather "doesn't want any individuals to perish.
>>
>> I grant that TINES may in some instances be understood in the sense, "some persons whose names I know but shall not mention" -- but the question whether that is to be understood in this text is one that I don't think can be answered. As for TINES TWN FARISAIWN and such like expressions, I take them to mean that they were Pharisees but their identities is unknown.
>>
>>> So what did Peter say? What was Peter trying to communicate? First of all I think most people lose track of the subject in this verse. The Lord KURIOS is the subject of each clause. The Lord is not slow....The Lord is longsuffering......The Lord is not willing.....but......The Lord is willing (all should come). I personally think that both the indefinite pronouns TINAS, TINES and the substantive adjective have antecedents. They all refer back to something in the text. This is the only way to make sense out of what Peter said in this chapter. This whole passage is about two groups, the "beloved" and the "scoffers/unregenerate". There is no reason why TINES could not have been translated "certain ones" referring to EMPAIKTHS scoffers. It's the scoffers who are charging the Lord with slowness. It is the "scoffers/unregenerate" which desperately need the longsuffering grace of the Lord. That is why I believe the key to this text is not grammatical but lexical. Longsuffering is something the Lord is toward the unregenerate not saved people. Therefore, the pronoun hUMHAS/hUMHS refers to us/we when we were unregenerate and in need of the longsuffering grace of God. You see, while the scoffers charge the Lord with slowness the Lord is gracious in providing time for them to repent. He does this because HE is not willing that any of them should perish. It's the scoffers/unregenerate who the Lord is longsuffering toward. It's the scoffers/unregenerate who the Lord is not willing any to perish and it is the scoffers/unregenerate whom the Lord desires would make room for repentance.
>>
>> And with regard to TINES in the first part of 3:9, I grant that the scoffers referred to previously should probably be included among them, but it seems to me that the reference of TINES is broader than that and will include any persons or groups who suppose that God's measures of time are commensurate with their own. In grammatical terms, I don't think there's a justification for equating TINES in this text with EKEINOI hOUS ARTI ELEGON.
>>>
>>> Is there an antecedent for the TIVAS in 2 Pet. 3:9? Yes, it's hUMHAS/hUMHS and yes I agree with you Carl PANTAS and TINAS are taken together only they refer to hUMHAS/hUMHS not some abstract group referring to no one in particular.
>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Conrad" <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
>>> To: "Rod Rogers" <rngrogers at embarqmail.com>
>>> Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 11:34 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] TINAS in 2 Pet. 3:9
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jan 27, 2011, at 8:59 AM, Rod Rogers wrote:
>>>
>>>> I was of the assumption that all pronouns by nature have antecedents (Machen #97; The Use of Pronouns).
>>>
>>> With all due respect, this seems a questionable notion to me, and I don't think I'd cite Machen as an authority. But in this case we're talking about an indefinite pronoun, a kind of pronoun which by definition does not refer to a specific person or thing.
>>>
>>> No doubt TIS or its plural TINES may be used rhetorically with the intention of avoiding overt mention of the person or thing referred to (e.g. "There are some in this group with whom I wouldn't care to associate," or "There are some things that I would never think of eating or drinking.")
>>>
>>> Certainly the "scoffers" referred to in the opening paragraph of the letter are a fundamental concern of the author, but he writes to addressees whom he appears to be warning against the scoffers rather than as themselves scoffers.
>>>
>>> The question raised was about TINAS in the MH BOULOMENOS clause rather than about the TINES of the hWS clause. I would think that the TINAS of the MH BOULOMENOS clause ought to be seen not with reference to some specific persons but rather in antithesis to PANTAS, so that the paired objects of the two infinitives are TINAS and PANTAS, "any (persons)" and "all (persons)" or "anybody" and "everybody."
>>>
>>> Carl W. Conrad
>>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>>>
>>>> Although it may not be proven grammatically I think there is a logical antecedent to TINES, εμπαικται EMPAIKTAI, scoffers who ask "Where is the promise of his coming?" Doesn't TINAS refer back to hHMAS/hUMAS, those who the Lord is longsuffering towards? The real fussing and fighting comes in when you try to find the antecedent of hHMAS/hUMAS.
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>> Carl W. Conrad
>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
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>
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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