[B-Greek] TINAS in 2 Pet. 3:9

Alastair Haines afhaines at tpg.com.au
Sat Jan 29 22:03:28 EST 2011


It seems we're all agreed the grammar leaves the question open.

I'm still a little reluctant to accept unregenerate scoffers as THE specific 
logical referent in our verse.

That's because I'm reading them as a SUBSET of each of two distinct intended 
groups in verse 9.

Isn't it quite possible NOT to scoff,
but still to think "the mills of God grind slowly",
albeit that "they grind exceedingly small."

Likewise, those God does not desire to perish,
do they not also include those who are ACTUALLY saved,
which suggests a superset: including the unregenerate scoffers,
but not restricted to them specifically.

Interestingly (for me) the Indonesian version reads the verse this way,
using the "ada ... yang" construction ("there exist" ... "such that") so 
typical of that language.
Likewise, the (modern) Hebrew NT adopts existential periphrastic structures 
to render this verse.

Having said all that, though, I feel I should admit I think Rod's reading is 
very helpful
in underlining the evidence that Peter does indeed want us to think of the 
unregenerate scoffers
as we read verse nine. His earlier harsh words concerning them are not all 
he has to say:
he completes his thought with strong assertions of God's grace.
As Rod has noted for us, this is very significant for larger theological 
issues.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carl Conrad" <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
To: "Oun Kwon" <kwonbbl at gmail.com>
Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 8:31 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] TINAS in 2 Pet. 3:9



On Jan 29, 2011, at 4:07 PM, Oun Kwon wrote:

> On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 3:53 PM, Rod Rogers <rngrogers at embarqmail.com> 
> wrote:
>>
>> I'll reply to this post hoping that all will see me replying to both 
>> Carl's
>> and Alastair's posts. Alistair, thanks for the link to the Google book, 
>> I'll
>> look into it. I can't deny that my palms get sweaty went Carl and I go 
>> head
>> to head. I'm sure all of us on the list have no problem giving Carl his 
>> due.
>> That said, I have a couple of comments. First, I don't know who agrees 
>> with
>> whom. Carl said, "but the question whether that is to be understood in 
>> this
>> text is one that I don't think can be answered." which is what I tried to
>> convey at the beginning of my first post, "Although it may not be proven
>> grammatically I think there is a logical antecedent to TINES". I was 
>> trying
>> to convey the idea that this verse is one historically problematic to
>> theologians. I'm not demanding anything in this verse. Sorry if it came
>> across that way.
>>
> <clipped>
>
> It seems to me that all these have to do with  'grammatical
> antecedent' vs 'logical antecedent'. In the case of 'logical', it may
> be better to say 'logical referent' to avoid confusion.


OK, so the "scoffers" should be termed the 'logical referent."
Si non è vero, è ben trovato! It would surely be churlish of me to
deny that Rod and I see pretty much eye to eye on what the author
is trying to communicate: he wants to counteract as vigorously as he
can any assertions that God is being "inconsiderately slow" in His
timing. And yes, this verse is indeed one that has been historically
problematic. I noted earlier that TINES might be used rhetorically
and that may well be the case here. I'm reminded of a celebraated
line in Quintilian about the Latin elegists. After noting that Propertius
is undoubtedly the best of them, he writes, "Sunt qui malint Tibullum." --
"Some people prefer Tibullus" -- implying that such people are idiots.
I've always been amused at this because I enjoy reading Tibullus more
than Propertius myself.

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)



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