[B-Greek] TINAS in 2 Pet. 3:9
Rod Rogers
rngrogers at embarqmail.com
Sat Jan 29 22:09:19 EST 2011
If this is to be discussed any further I believe it probably
should be done off list.
rod rogers
bargersville, in
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alastair Haines" <afhaines at tpg.com.au>
To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 10:03 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] TINAS in 2 Pet. 3:9
It seems we're all agreed the grammar leaves the question open.
I'm still a little reluctant to accept unregenerate scoffers as
THE specific
logical referent in our verse.
That's because I'm reading them as a SUBSET of each of two
distinct intended
groups in verse 9.
Isn't it quite possible NOT to scoff,
but still to think "the mills of God grind slowly",
albeit that "they grind exceedingly small."
Likewise, those God does not desire to perish,
do they not also include those who are ACTUALLY saved,
which suggests a superset: including the unregenerate scoffers,
but not restricted to them specifically.
Interestingly (for me) the Indonesian version reads the verse
this way,
using the "ada ... yang" construction ("there exist" ... "such
that") so
typical of that language.
Likewise, the (modern) Hebrew NT adopts existential periphrastic
structures
to render this verse.
Having said all that, though, I feel I should admit I think Rod's
reading is
very helpful
in underlining the evidence that Peter does indeed want us to
think of the
unregenerate scoffers
as we read verse nine. His earlier harsh words concerning them
are not all
he has to say:
he completes his thought with strong assertions of God's grace.
As Rod has noted for us, this is very significant for larger
theological
issues.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Conrad" <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
To: "Oun Kwon" <kwonbbl at gmail.com>
Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 8:31 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] TINAS in 2 Pet. 3:9
On Jan 29, 2011, at 4:07 PM, Oun Kwon wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 3:53 PM, Rod Rogers
> <rngrogers at embarqmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I'll reply to this post hoping that all will see me replying
>> to both Carl's
>> and Alastair's posts. Alistair, thanks for the link to the
>> Google book, I'll
>> look into it. I can't deny that my palms get sweaty went Carl
>> and I go head
>> to head. I'm sure all of us on the list have no problem giving
>> Carl his due.
>> That said, I have a couple of comments. First, I don't know
>> who agrees with
>> whom. Carl said, "but the question whether that is to be
>> understood in this
>> text is one that I don't think can be answered." which is what
>> I tried to
>> convey at the beginning of my first post, "Although it may not
>> be proven
>> grammatically I think there is a logical antecedent to TINES".
>> I was trying
>> to convey the idea that this verse is one historically
>> problematic to
>> theologians. I'm not demanding anything in this verse. Sorry
>> if it came
>> across that way.
>>
> <clipped>
>
> It seems to me that all these have to do with 'grammatical
> antecedent' vs 'logical antecedent'. In the case of 'logical',
> it may
> be better to say 'logical referent' to avoid confusion.
OK, so the "scoffers" should be termed the 'logical referent."
Si non vero, ben trovato! It would surely be churlish of me to
deny that Rod and I see pretty much eye to eye on what the author
is trying to communicate: he wants to counteract as vigorously as
he
can any assertions that God is being "inconsiderately slow" in
His
timing. And yes, this verse is indeed one that has been
historically
problematic. I noted earlier that TINES might be used
rhetorically
and that may well be the case here. I'm reminded of a celebraated
line in Quintilian about the Latin elegists. After noting that
Propertius
is undoubtedly the best of them, he writes, "Sunt qui malint
Tibullum." --
"Some people prefer Tibullus" -- implying that such people are
idiots.
I've always been amused at this because I enjoy reading Tibullus
more
than Propertius myself.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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