[B-Greek] PSALMOS TWi DAUID

Albert Pietersma albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Wed May 4 08:51:29 EDT 2011


When ancient evidence explains that TOU DAUID means "by David" and TW  
DAUID "having to do with Dauid," it would  seem rather farfetched to  
have recourse to Homer, the more so in light of the translation mode  
of the Greek Psalter. Furthermore, it is simply not true that Psalter  
Greek can almost always be explained as "traditional Greek." Sorry,  
Mark, but this is so well known that it scarcely needs demonstration.
Al
On May 4, 2011, at 8:33 AM, Mark Lightman wrote:

> Carl wrote
>
> <It should be noted however (I expect Al Pietersma to chime in here)  
> that
> this is the LXX's  woodenly-literal rendering of the Hebrew phrase
> LDVD. The dative of possession certainly is a standard feature of  
> Greek
> grammar, BUT it is ordinarily used with a form of the verb EINAI, e.g.
> ESTI MOI PAIS, "I have a child." The fact that the the superscription
> for this psalm in the LXX reds TWi DAUID almost surely has nothing  
> to do
> with traditional Greek grammar.>
>
> Hi, Carl,
>
> I agree with this too, and again, what we might call the bare dative  
> of possession
> (without the ESTI) is rare in the GNT.  But not so in Homer, where,  
> for example,
> θυμος μοι is more common than θυμος μου.
>
> It's been argued that the LXX translators were influenced by Homeric  
> vocabulary and
> syntax, which is sort of like saying that Luther was influenced by  
> Paul.  The point is that
> when analyzing  the LXX, and even more so the GNT,  looking at the  
> Hebrew is helpful, but
> you can also almost always explain things in terms of the  
> traditional Greek.
>
> Mark L
>
> Φωσφορος
>
>
>
> FWSFOROS MARKOS
>
> --- On Wed, 5/4/11, Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com> wrote:
>
> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] PSALMOS TWi DAUID
> To: "Mark Lightman" <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
> Cc: "B-Greek List mail to all" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>, "Barry  
> H." <nebarry at verizon.net>
> Date: Wednesday, May 4, 2011, 6:01 AM
>
>
> On May 4, 2011, at 7:54 AM, Mark Lightman wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> --- On Wed, 5/4/11, Barry H. <nebarry at verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>> From: Barry H. <nebarry at verizon.net>
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] PSALMOS TWi DAUID
>> To:
> "B-Greek List mail to all" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Date: Wednesday, May 4, 2011, 4:46 AM
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Peter Streitenberger" <ps2866 at bingo-ev.de>
>> To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2011 6:12 AM
>> Subject: [B-Greek] PSALMOS TWi DAUID
>>
>>
>>> Dear Friends,
>>> what kind of Dative is used in the psalms by the LXX-Translators  
>>> (z.B.
>>> 3,1;4,1 etc.), when they interprete LeDavid as "Lamed auctoris"?  
>>> Is this
>>> Dative instrumental: written "by David"?
>>> Thank you for any help !
>>> Peter,
> Germany
>>
>> Well, if a category is necessary, I would say a dative of  
>> possession, "of
>> David."
>>
>> ML:  I agree with Barry, and would only add that the dative of  
>> possession is very common from Homer on down, maybe just as common  
>> as the genitive of possession.  I'm not sure the GNT grammars and  
>> textbooks prepare one for how common it is, because, I guess, the  
>> genitive of possession is much more common in the GNT.
>
> It should be noted however (I expect Al Pietersma to chime in here)  
> that this is the LXX's  woodenly-literal rendering of the Hebrew  
> phrase LDVD. The dative of possession certainly is a standard  
> feature of Greek grammar, BUT it is ordinarily used with a form of  
> the verb EINAI, e.g. ESTI MOI PAIS, "I have a child." The fact that  
> the the superscription for this psalm in the LXX reds TWi DAUID  
> almost surely has nothing to do with traditional Greek grammar.
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department
> of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>
>
>
> ---
> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
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—
Albert Pietersma PhD
21 Cross Street,
Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm



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