[B-Greek] future indicative in Jonah 1:11 (Joseph Justiss)

spencerj76 at aol.com spencerj76 at aol.com
Thu May 19 12:15:35 EDT 2011


19 May 2011


Friends, 

I've checked the Masoretic Text of Jonah 1:11, and it does seem, as George indicated, that the expression καὶ κοπάσει (KAI KOPASEI) in the Septuagint text of Jonah is mostly an effort to translate the Qal imperfect (or jussive) of the the Hebrew verb SH-T-Q ("be quiet"). I would think that in this example of translation Greek, the translators of the Septuagint are just trying to translate the Hebrew tense along with the conjunctive WAW in the Hebrew text (which, as George explained, can be used in many ways). It may be worth noting that the translators don't seem to take the Hebrew imperfect to have a jussive sense ("that the sea might be....") as far as I can tell. Because it's translation Greek, I'm not sure I'd draw too many grammatical conclusions with regard to the Greek. As to the subjunctive in the sailors' question, that, too, seems like the most natural way for the Greeks to translate the Hebrew original (a Qal imperfect of the verb "to do"). 

Best wishes, 
Jeremy Spencer 






-----Original Message-----
From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
To: Joseph Justiss <jljustiss at gmail.com>; b-greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Wed, May 18, 2011 6:22 pm
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] future indicative in Jonah 1:11 (Joseph Justiss)



Jonah 1:11 (GS 12 Proph) 
1 καὶ εἶπαν πρὸς αὐτόν Τί σοι ποιήσωμεν, καὶ κοπάσει ἡ θάλασσα ἀφʼ ἡμῶν; ὅτι ἡ 
άλασσα ἐπορεύετο καὶ ἐξήγειρε μᾶλλον κλύδωνα. 
11 KAI EIPAN PROS AUTON, "TI SOI POIHSWMEN, KAI KOPASEI hH QALASSA AF' hHMWN?" 
OTI hH QALASSA EPOREUETO KAI ECHGEIRE MALLON KLUDWNA.

'm not sure what your problem with κοπάσει KOPASEI might be, but it seems that 
hat we have here is a very literal translation of the MT here (note the καί 
AI joining it to the preceeding). I suspect, however, that you are questioning 
hy a future is used here.  Note that the subj of the aorist is used in the 
uestion Τί σοι ποιήσωμεν TI POIHSWMEN as might be expected in a question 
xpressing uncertainty.  In keeping with Semitic practice the current clause is 
oined to the preceeding by a copula which has many uses in Hebrew including 
xpressing result or purpose.  In this case we are looking at a purpose clause 
o that the question is asked regarding what must be done SO THAT the danger may 
be averted.
 george
fsomsel 

 search for truth, hear truth, 
earn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, 
efend the truth till death.

 Jan Hus
________ 


_______________________________
rom: Joseph Justiss <jljustiss at gmail.com>
o: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
ent: Wed, May 18, 2011 1:43:51 PM
ubject: [B-Greek] future indicative in Jonah 1:11 (Joseph Justiss)
I was wondering if you all can help explain the use of the future indicative
n Jonah 1:11 after the subjunctive in the sailors' question. It seems to me
he future mainly marks a result in this type of construction. Is this
omething inherent within the semantics of the future, or is this a special
ragmatic use in certain types of interrogative clauses, or subjuntive
ettings? I think the same thing happens in the last clause of Matthew
3:15
-- 
oseph Justiss
--
-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
-Greek mailing list
-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
ttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
--
-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
-Greek mailing list
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ttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek






-----Original Message-----
From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
To: Joseph Justiss <jljustiss at gmail.com>; b-greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Wed, May 18, 2011 6:22 pm
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] future indicative in Jonah 1:11 (Joseph Justiss)



Jonah 1:11 (GS 12 Proph) 
1 καὶ εἶπαν πρὸς αὐτόν Τί σοι ποιήσωμεν, καὶ κοπάσει ἡ θάλασσα ἀφʼ ἡμῶν; ὅτι ἡ 
άλασσα ἐπορεύετο καὶ ἐξήγειρε μᾶλλον κλύδωνα. 
11 KAI EIPAN PROS AUTON, "TI SOI POIHSWMEN, KAI KOPASEI hH QALASSA AF' hHMWN?" 
OTI hH QALASSA EPOREUETO KAI ECHGEIRE MALLON KLUDWNA.

'm not sure what your problem with κοπάσει KOPASEI might be, but it seems that 
hat we have here is a very literal translation of the MT here (note the καί 
AI joining it to the preceeding). I suspect, however, that you are questioning 
hy a future is used here.  Note that the subj of the aorist is used in the 
uestion Τί σοι ποιήσωμεν TI POIHSWMEN as might be expected in a question 
xpressing uncertainty.  In keeping with Semitic practice the current clause is 
oined to the preceeding by a copula which has many uses in Hebrew including 
xpressing result or purpose.  In this case we are looking at a purpose clause 
o that the question is asked regarding what must be done SO THAT the danger may 
be averted.
 george
fsomsel 

 search for truth, hear truth, 
earn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, 
efend the truth till death.

 Jan Hus
________ 


_______________________________
rom: Joseph Justiss <jljustiss at gmail.com>
o: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
ent: Wed, May 18, 2011 1:43:51 PM
ubject: [B-Greek] future indicative in Jonah 1:11 (Joseph Justiss)
I was wondering if you all can help explain the use of the future indicative
n Jonah 1:11 after the subjunctive in the sailors' question. It seems to me
he future mainly marks a result in this type of construction. Is this
omething inherent within the semantics of the future, or is this a special
ragmatic use in certain types of interrogative clauses, or subjuntive
ettings? I think the same thing happens in the last clause of Matthew
3:15
-- 
oseph Justiss
--
-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
-Greek mailing list
-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
ttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
--
-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
-Greek mailing list
-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
ttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek



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