[B-Greek] future indicative in Jonah 1:11 (Joseph Justiss)
John Sanders
john.franklin.sanders at gmail.com
Fri May 20 01:02:22 EDT 2011
I first wish to make a confession here, I have procured and studied Dr.
Buth’s “living Greek” and I have procured, but only scanned his “living
Hebrew”. I would recommend Dr. Buth’s program whole heartedly.
I always enjoy Dr. Buth’s remarks and find his insight to be very
instructive. Likewise I see Jeremy Spencer’s remarks also instructive.
But….
This “but” is not in contra against either one of them, but questions the
relevance to the specific question at hand.
I have an acquaintance, this acquaintance is Chinese by nationality and by
first language. She also is fluent in English. She is reading Turgenev’s
“Fathers and Sons” in Chinese, also using an English version. Even though
what she is reading is “translationese”, it is Chinese. She understands the
passages from the Chinese patterns, not from the Russian original and how
that original was transformed into Chinese is irrelevant to her (similar
with the English version).
Translations have to stand on the merits of the language it is written
in. What
Dr. Buth and Jeremy Spencer have written are wonderful asides, useful and
enjoyable very useful in an essay on translation history or techniques or
such as that. But in understanding the Greek text, it is not germane. The
Greek text needs to stand on its own feet and be understood in terms of
Greek.
At least that is how I would view answering the question posed.
John Sanders
Suzhou, China
On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 12:15 AM, <spencerj76 at aol.com> wrote:
>
> 19 May 2011
>
>
> Friends,
>
> I've checked the Masoretic Text of Jonah 1:11, and it does seem, as George
> indicated, that the expression καὶ κοπάσει (KAI KOPASEI) in the Septuagint
> text of Jonah is mostly an effort to translate the Qal imperfect (or
> jussive) of the the Hebrew verb SH-T-Q ("be quiet"). I would think that in
> this example of translation Greek, the translators of the Septuagint are
> just trying to translate the Hebrew tense along with the conjunctive WAW in
> the Hebrew text (which, as George explained, can be used in many ways). It
> may be worth noting that the translators don't seem to take the Hebrew
> imperfect to have a jussive sense ("that the sea might be....") as far as I
> can tell. Because it's translation Greek, I'm not sure I'd draw too many
> grammatical conclusions with regard to the Greek. As to the subjunctive in
> the sailors' question, that, too, seems like the most natural way for the
> Greeks to translate the Hebrew original (a Qal imperfect of the verb "to
> do").
>
> Best wishes,
> Jeremy Spencer
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
> To: Joseph Justiss <jljustiss at gmail.com>; b-greek <
> b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Wed, May 18, 2011 6:22 pm
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] future indicative in Jonah 1:11 (Joseph Justiss)
>
>
>
> Jonah 1:11 (GS 12 Proph)
> 1 καὶ εἶπαν πρὸς αὐτόν Τί σοι ποιήσωμεν, καὶ κοπάσει ἡ θάλασσα ἀφʼ ἡμῶν;
> ὅτι ἡ
> άλασσα ἐπορεύετο καὶ ἐξήγειρε μᾶλλον κλύδωνα.
> 11 KAI EIPAN PROS AUTON, "TI SOI POIHSWMEN, KAI KOPASEI hH QALASSA AF'
> hHMWN?"
> OTI hH QALASSA EPOREUETO KAI ECHGEIRE MALLON KLUDWNA.
>
> 'm not sure what your problem with κοπάσει KOPASEI might be, but it seems
> that
> hat we have here is a very literal translation of the MT here (note the
> καί
> AI joining it to the preceeding). I suspect, however, that you are
> questioning
> hy a future is used here. Note that the subj of the aorist is used in the
> uestion Τί σοι ποιήσωμεν TI POIHSWMEN as might be expected in a question
> xpressing uncertainty. In keeping with Semitic practice the current clause
> is
> oined to the preceeding by a copula which has many uses in Hebrew including
> xpressing result or purpose. In this case we are looking at a purpose
> clause
> o that the question is asked regarding what must be done SO THAT the danger
> may
> be averted.
> george
> fsomsel
>
> search for truth, hear truth,
> earn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
> efend the truth till death.
>
> Jan Hus
> ________
>
>
> _______________________________
> rom: Joseph Justiss <jljustiss at gmail.com>
> o: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> ent: Wed, May 18, 2011 1:43:51 PM
> ubject: [B-Greek] future indicative in Jonah 1:11 (Joseph Justiss)
> I was wondering if you all can help explain the use of the future
> indicative
> n Jonah 1:11 after the subjunctive in the sailors' question. It seems to me
> he future mainly marks a result in this type of construction. Is this
> omething inherent within the semantics of the future, or is this a special
> ragmatic use in certain types of interrogative clauses, or subjuntive
> ettings? I think the same thing happens in the last clause of Matthew
> 3:15
> --
> oseph Justiss
> --
> -Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
> -Greek mailing list
> -Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> ttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
> --
> -Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
> -Greek mailing list
> -Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> ttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
> To: Joseph Justiss <jljustiss at gmail.com>; b-greek <
> b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Wed, May 18, 2011 6:22 pm
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] future indicative in Jonah 1:11 (Joseph Justiss)
>
>
>
> Jonah 1:11 (GS 12 Proph)
> 1 καὶ εἶπαν πρὸς αὐτόν Τί σοι ποιήσωμεν, καὶ κοπάσει ἡ θάλασσα ἀφʼ ἡμῶν;
> ὅτι ἡ
> άλασσα ἐπορεύετο καὶ ἐξήγειρε μᾶλλον κλύδωνα.
> 11 KAI EIPAN PROS AUTON, "TI SOI POIHSWMEN, KAI KOPASEI hH QALASSA AF'
> hHMWN?"
> OTI hH QALASSA EPOREUETO KAI ECHGEIRE MALLON KLUDWNA.
>
> 'm not sure what your problem with κοπάσει KOPASEI might be, but it seems
> that
> hat we have here is a very literal translation of the MT here (note the
> καί
> AI joining it to the preceeding). I suspect, however, that you are
> questioning
> hy a future is used here. Note that the subj of the aorist is used in the
> uestion Τί σοι ποιήσωμεν TI POIHSWMEN as might be expected in a question
> xpressing uncertainty. In keeping with Semitic practice the current clause
> is
> oined to the preceeding by a copula which has many uses in Hebrew including
> xpressing result or purpose. In this case we are looking at a purpose
> clause
> o that the question is asked regarding what must be done SO THAT the danger
> may
> be averted.
> george
> fsomsel
>
> search for truth, hear truth,
> earn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
> efend the truth till death.
>
> Jan Hus
> ________
>
>
> _______________________________
> rom: Joseph Justiss <jljustiss at gmail.com>
> o: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> ent: Wed, May 18, 2011 1:43:51 PM
> ubject: [B-Greek] future indicative in Jonah 1:11 (Joseph Justiss)
> I was wondering if you all can help explain the use of the future
> indicative
> n Jonah 1:11 after the subjunctive in the sailors' question. It seems to me
> he future mainly marks a result in this type of construction. Is this
> omething inherent within the semantics of the future, or is this a special
> ragmatic use in certain types of interrogative clauses, or subjuntive
> ettings? I think the same thing happens in the last clause of Matthew
> 3:15
> --
> oseph Justiss
> --
> -Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
> -Greek mailing list
> -Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> ttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
> --
> -Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
> -Greek mailing list
> -Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> ttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>
> ---
> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
> B-Greek mailing list
> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>
--
John Sanders
Suzhou, China
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