Re: Holy Spirit in Islam and in New Teatament Thinking, Tim's reply

Date: Fri May 24 1996 - 22:47:42 EDT

At 12:01 AM 5/25/96, Mr. Timothy T. Dickens wrote:
>>>>As for me, the word "Paraclete" or "Advocate" is good enough
>>>>to demonstrate that the next Advocate ("another Paraclete")
>>>>to come after Jesus, had to be a male figure. The reason being;
>>>>in his Epistle 1Jn.2:1, the apostle John has used the same
>>>>terminology/word for Christ Jesus.
>>> Brother Akbar, in the gospel of John, the writer calls in
>>>several places (14:16-17,26;15:26;16:7-8,13) the Paraclete either
>>>the Holy-Spirit, or Spirit of Truth and NOT a MAN.
Brother Tim: The issue raised was; IF Jesus a `Male Figure'
was called a "Paraclete" by John, why not the "another" Paraclete
be also "another" `Male Figure' like Jesus?
Besides, Jesus admitted being a prophet prophesied by Moses.
So, the next prophet to come after Jesus could be a **likely
person** for being a Paraclete.

And, why should not that Male person be designated as
the "Spirit of Truth" in the light of verse 4:6 from
the same Epistle of John?

Please read carefully the below quoted passage from
the Anchor Bible Volume 29A Page 1135:

        "Christian tradition has identified this figure
(Paraclete) as the Holy Spirit, but scholars like Spitta,
Delefosse, Windisch, Sasse, Bultmann, and Betz have doubted
whether this identification is true to the original picture
and have suggested that the Paraclete was once an independent
salvific figure, later confused with the Holy Spirit."

So, I am not the only one saying "Paraclete" was a Male Figure.
>>(A) As for the Holy Spirit, the word "Holy" has been added.
>> It is not found in the older mss in some of the verses.
>TTD: Brother Akbar, what passage of John's gospel are you referring
>to when you say that the word "Holy" has been added? I have looked
>through all the passages I mentioned above a second time, this times
>paying careful attention to the critical apparatus which discusses
>the various manuscripts. I do not see any manuscript indicating
>the word "Holy" has been indicated.
AM: Brother Tim: Mrs.Agnes S. Lewis and Mrs.Bensley discovered
a manuscript from St.Catherine's monastry on Mt.Sinai.
In this palimpest Codex Syriacus in John 14:26 the word
mentioned is quite simply "the spirit" and not "the holy spirit".
For further details please read Dr.Maurice Bucaille's book
`The Bible, the Qur'an and Science'.
>>(B) The term Spirit refers to "The Spirit of Truth".
>TTD: The text states this already.

AM: Thanks for your concurrance.
>>(C) The terms "The Spirit of Truth" and "The Spirit of Error"
>> are designated names for living individuals in the Bible.
>> Furthermore, these terms are used as such by Apostle John.
>> Please see 1 John 4:6.
>TTD: This is an interesting point and, perhaps, not to be argued
>with! Maybe the discourse in John's gospel regarding the "Holy"
>spirit and the term 'Spirit' in the 1st. letter are related?
>Nonetheless, I am not sure.
>>(D) No where in the Bible the term "The Spirit of Truth" is
>> designated for "The Holy Spirit".
>TTD: O.K. Brother Akbar, here is the evidence for the Holy Spirit
>being called the Spirit of Truth. In John's gospel 14:26 the "Holy
>Spirit" is called the "Advocate." In John 15:26 the "Advocate is
>called the "Spirit of Truth." Notice, the "Holy Spirit" is the
>"Advocate" and the "Advocate" is called the "Spirit of Truth."
>Thus, the "Holy Spirit" is the "Spirit of Truth."

AM: Brother Tim, I would like to edit the last line of your response.

"Thus, the "Spirit" is the short form of "Spirit of Truth"
 is called Advocate.

>In John's gospel they are one in the same person, using different

AM: Brother Tim, I agree they are one and the same "person" taking
        pronoun "He" and "Him". ^^^^^^^^

>>(E) You have quoted 14:16-17,26;15:26 in your response.
>> In each of the above verses, John has used the pronoun
>> "He" and "Him". John has used these pronouns for more than
>> a dozen times while referring to Paraclete.
>> The question is why are Christians over
>> looking this obvious FACT and believe John meant "It"
>> instead when he did not use that pronoun once???
>> To say the author did not know the Greek grammar is to say
>> ignore what is written and adopt what you think
>> ought to have been written, instead. A dangerous precedent.
>TTD: The answer to this question is simple to answer, though I am
>not able to supply an answer at the moment. What is needed are
>examples of Greek neuter nouns syntactically related to masculine or
>feminine pronouns. Your question, if I understand you correctly, is
>how can John refer the Holy Spirit, which is neuter in gender, to
>something masculine. There is an answer, trust me, and I will find
>it! One of the recipients of this message will be a discussion
>group dedicated to the study of the Greek New Testament. Maybe one
>of the readers will have an answer. If not, I promise to reply to
>you (God willing) this weekend.

AM: You understood it right. I will look forward to
your response.
>>(F) You have quoted 15:7-8,13. They do not refer to
>> Paraclete.
>TTD: See my above comments about the Paraclete being the spirit of
>truth and ect (Below letter 'D').

AM: These quoted verses do not refer to "spirit" either. They have
nothing to do with the subject matter under discussion.

>>(G) Why use the term "another" Paraclete?
>> Are there TWO Holy Spirits? We know the Holy Spirit was
>> present when the prophecy was made and even before that time.
>TTD: I think I answered this already in a previous message.

AM: I don't think your earlier message answers this question.
Does not the word "another" convey meaning;
additional, supplimentary, more than one??
Further more, the arrival in the future date does convey
other than the one being present.

>>(H) Why was the arrival of Holy Spirit made conditional and
>> subject to the departure of Jesus? See 16:7 If I do not
>> go away, the Paraclete shall not come to you. but if I
>> go, I will send him to you.
>>(I) In view of (H) above there should be
>> "Old" Holy Spirit and "New" Holy Spirit -OR-
>> the POST Holy Spirit and the CURRENT Holy Spirit!
>>I hope you would see the other side of the coin.
>>With love.
>TTD: Brother Akbar, regarding point (H), I think you have raised a
>good THEOLOGICAL question. These, honestly, are the questions I
>find least interesting, but I will answer it anyway in a latter

AM: Brother Tim, the question is "good" and relevant; YET,
"least interesting"!!! I am glad you will answer it "anyway".
More, after hearing from you.

>peace and love,
>Timothy T. Dickens
>Smyrna, GA
> Home
> School
>Simon Peter said to them, 'Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of
life,' Jesus said, 'I myself shall make her male, so that she too may become
a living spirit resembling male. For every woman who will make herself male
will enter the kingdom of Heave

AM: This is an "interesting" passage. Do Gays know of this passage,
especially the ending? What is they add, "and vice versa". :-)
BTW; please quote the verse number in you next mail. Thanks.

Love and Peace to All


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