From: Lyle Story (email@example.com)
Date: Thu Feb 20 1997 - 07:22:06 EST
Let me suggest something that may be of help. An overall outline of the
text may shed light:
Don't be shaken or in a state of nervousness.
Grounds: The grounds for steadiness--The Parousia has not come
Explanation: Why? Because the great apostasy has not yet happened
Particulars: Man of Lawlessness, Mystery of Lawlessness
already at work, Restrainer already at work,
victory of Christ.
Paul is writing the Thessalonians to calm them in that the Parousia has not
yet occurred and they haven't missed it. He gives them pastoral advice of
some of the precursors which will precede the Parousia, and will give them
indicators of the immediacy of the Parousia. These things will happen prior
to the Parousia. Now if, the Church is removed via a secret Rapture, then
Paul's advice is largely an "academic" exercise; these signs have
absolutely no bearing upon his pastoral concern to them for steadiness. I
would like to believe that Paul writes to people with material that will
help them, not offer information that has no direct bearing upon their
lives. Also, the mention of apostasy refers consistently through the Bible
and I Maccabbees to apostasy within the people of God, e.g., apostasy
occurred in I Macc. with respect to the reverse process of circumsion of the
Jews, sacrificing swine, who apostasized in the time of Antiochus Epiphanes
At 01:20 AM 2/20/97 EST, you wrote:
>b-greek-digest Thursday, 20 February 1997 Volume 01 : Number 614
>In this issue:
> Fwd: Apostasy - 2 Thessalonians 2:3
>Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 01:13:26 -0500 (EST)
>Subject: Fwd: Apostasy - 2 Thessalonians 2:3
>In a message dated 97-02-19 23:10:24 EST, firstname.lastname@example.org (Paul Dixon - Ladd
>Hill Bible Church) writes:
>First of all, I mean't pre-trib, not post-trib. Sorry for the confusion.
> You wanted to know what the basic idea was on how the pre-trib view was
>imposed in this verse.
>First, let me empasize my lack of Greek understanding, very basic. Also, I
>am unfamiliar which groups teach this on a consistent basis. Not to get into
>an argument, I won't mention which group I had heard this view from (unless
>you downright insist).
>Here it goes...
>2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (Tyndale)
>We beseech you brethren by the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in that
>we shall assemble unto him, that ye be no suddenly moved from your mind, and
>be no troubled, neither by spirit, neither by words, nor yet by letter which
>should seem to come from us as though the day of Christ were at hand. Let no
>man deceive you by any means, for the Lord cometh not, except there come a
>DEPARTING first, and that sinful man be opened, the son of perdition which is
>an adversary, and is exalted above all that is called God, or that is
>worshipped: so that he shall sit as God in temple of God, and shew himself
>1. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and
>by our assembling unto him,
>2. That ye be not suddenly mooved from your mind, nor troubled neither by
>spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as it were from us, as though the day the
>of Christ were at hand.
>3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except
>there come a DEPARTING first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the
>son of perdition.
>4. Which is an adversary, and exalteth himself against all that is called
>God, or that is worshipped: so that he doeth sit as God in the Temple of God,
>shewing himself that he is God.
>(An Expanded Translation by Kenneth S. Wuest)
>Now, I am requesting you, brethren, with regard to the coming and personal
>presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, even our being assembled together to Him,
>not soon become unsettled, the source of this unsettled state being your
>minds, neither be thrown unto confusion, either by a spirit [a believer in
>the Christian assembly claiming the authority of divine revelation and
>claiming to give the saints a word from God], or through a word [received
>personally] as from us or through a letter falsely alleged to be written by
>us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come is now present. Do not
>begin to allow anyone to lead you astray in any way, because that day shall
>not come except the aforementioned DEPARTURE [of the Church to heaven] comes
>first and the man of lawlessness is disclosed [in his true identity], the son
>of perdition, he who sets himself in opposition to and exalts himself above
>everyone and everything that is called a god or that is an object of worship,
>so that he seats himself in the inner sanctuary of God, proclaiming himself
>to be deity.
>I typed all that so you could help see for yourself what the idea was. In a
>nutshell, the Church has to be taken out of the way before the antichrist can
>reveal himself. The Church being the hinderance.
>From: email@example.com (Paul Dixon - Ladd Hill Bible Church)
>CC: ILKVM@aol.com, firstname.lastname@example.org
>Date: 97-02-19 23:10:24 EST
>> <<If some argue for a
>> post-trib rapture because of a "departure" rendering of APOSTASIA, then
>> you might have an argument. I argue for a post-trib rapture
>> interpretation from this passage for other reasons.>>
>> I think your first post-trib should be pre-trib, at least I think that's
>> you mean. While I do not think APOSTASIA refers to the rapture (I think it
>> explained in 2:10-12), that view is not as nonsensical as you seem to make
>> if the timing of the rapture is not clear in the Thessalonians minds.
>> most pretribs do not teach that the rapture begins the day of the Lord or
>> seven year tribulation. They see it as beginning with the signing of the
>> covenant in Daniel 9:26-27 or the first seal of Rev 6. The rapture does
>> a relationship to the Day of the Lord because it is bound with the
>> but not necessarily as the beginning of the DOL.
>No, I meant post-trib there. But, its not important.
>What you say is interesting. While I attended DTS ('71-'75) I know that
>the predominant view was that the rapture started the day of the Lord. If
>the pretribs have changed, then it certainly indicates they acknowledged
>the problems with it.
>Would you care to summarize for me your pretrib understanding of the these
>verses (v. 1-4)? Much thanks.
>Psst, oh yeah. Be sure to throw in some Greek, so nobody on the Greek
>list gets his nose out of joint.
>End of b-greek-digest V1 #614
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