From: Paul Dixon - Ladd Hill Bible Church (email@example.com)
Date: Thu Feb 20 1997 - 11:57:01 EST
I agree completely with your understanding of the passage. In fact, while
preaching through the Thessalonian epistles over 20 years ago it was this
passage that convinced me I had to ditch my pretrib belief (and I'm a DTS
BTW, thanks for sending the info on Greek To Me. I had just committed to
using Wenham's grammar in my up-coming class. But, who knows?
Paul S. Dixon, pastor "I have no ax to grind;
Ladd Hill Bible Church let's sharpen one another."
On Thu, 20 Feb 1997, Lyle Story wrote:
> Let me suggest something that may be of help. An overall outline of the
> text may shed light:
> Don't be shaken or in a state of nervousness.
> Grounds: The grounds for steadiness--The Parousia has not come
> (vss. 1-2).
> Explanation: Why? Because the great apostasy has not yet happened
> (vss. 3-12)
> Particulars: Man of Lawlessness, Mystery of Lawlessness
> already at work, Restrainer already at work,
> victory of Christ.
> Paul is writing the Thessalonians to calm them in that the Parousia has not
> yet occurred and they haven't missed it. He gives them pastoral advice of
> some of the precursors which will precede the Parousia, and will give them
> indicators of the immediacy of the Parousia. These things will happen prior
> to the Parousia. Now if, the Church is removed via a secret Rapture, then
> Paul's advice is largely an "academic" exercise; these signs have
> absolutely no bearing upon his pastoral concern to them for steadiness. I
> would like to believe that Paul writes to people with material that will
> help them, not offer information that has no direct bearing upon their
> lives. Also, the mention of apostasy refers consistently through the Bible
> and I Maccabbees to apostasy within the people of God, e.g., apostasy
> occurred in I Macc. with respect to the reverse process of circumsion of the
> Jews, sacrificing swine, who apostasized in the time of Antiochus Epiphanes
> At 01:20 AM 2/20/97 EST, you wrote:
> >b-greek-digest Thursday, 20 February 1997 Volume 01 : Number 614
> >In this issue:
> > Fwd: Apostasy - 2 Thessalonians 2:3
> >From: ILKVM@aol.com
> >Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 01:13:26 -0500 (EST)
> >Subject: Fwd: Apostasy - 2 Thessalonians 2:3
> >In a message dated 97-02-19 23:10:24 EST, firstname.lastname@example.org (Paul Dixon - Ladd
> >Hill Bible Church) writes:
> >First of all, I mean't pre-trib, not post-trib. Sorry for the confusion.
> > You wanted to know what the basic idea was on how the pre-trib view was
> >imposed in this verse.
> >First, let me empasize my lack of Greek understanding, very basic. Also, I
> >am unfamiliar which groups teach this on a consistent basis. Not to get into
> >an argument, I won't mention which group I had heard this view from (unless
> >you downright insist).
> >Here it goes...
> >2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (Tyndale)
> >We beseech you brethren by the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in that
> >we shall assemble unto him, that ye be no suddenly moved from your mind, and
> >be no troubled, neither by spirit, neither by words, nor yet by letter which
> >should seem to come from us as though the day of Christ were at hand. Let no
> >man deceive you by any means, for the Lord cometh not, except there come a
> >DEPARTING first, and that sinful man be opened, the son of perdition which is
> >an adversary, and is exalted above all that is called God, or that is
> >worshipped: so that he shall sit as God in temple of God, and shew himself
> >1. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and
> >by our assembling unto him,
> >2. That ye be not suddenly mooved from your mind, nor troubled neither by
> >spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as it were from us, as though the day the
> >of Christ were at hand.
> >3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except
> >there come a DEPARTING first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the
> >son of perdition.
> >4. Which is an adversary, and exalteth himself against all that is called
> >God, or that is worshipped: so that he doeth sit as God in the Temple of God,
> >shewing himself that he is God.
> >(An Expanded Translation by Kenneth S. Wuest)
> >Now, I am requesting you, brethren, with regard to the coming and personal
> >presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, even our being assembled together to Him,
> >not soon become unsettled, the source of this unsettled state being your
> >minds, neither be thrown unto confusion, either by a spirit [a believer in
> >the Christian assembly claiming the authority of divine revelation and
> >claiming to give the saints a word from God], or through a word [received
> >personally] as from us or through a letter falsely alleged to be written by
> >us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come is now present. Do not
> >begin to allow anyone to lead you astray in any way, because that day shall
> >not come except the aforementioned DEPARTURE [of the Church to heaven] comes
> >first and the man of lawlessness is disclosed [in his true identity], the son
> >of perdition, he who sets himself in opposition to and exalts himself above
> >everyone and everything that is called a god or that is an object of worship,
> >so that he seats himself in the inner sanctuary of God, proclaiming himself
> >to be deity.
> >I typed all that so you could help see for yourself what the idea was. In a
> >nutshell, the Church has to be taken out of the way before the antichrist can
> >reveal himself. The Church being the hinderance.
> >- ---------------------
> >Forwarded message:
> >From: email@example.com (Paul Dixon - Ladd Hill Bible Church)
> >To: CEP7@aol.com
> >CC: ILKVM@aol.com, firstname.lastname@example.org
> >Date: 97-02-19 23:10:24 EST
> >> <<If some argue for a
> >> post-trib rapture because of a "departure" rendering of APOSTASIA, then
> >> you might have an argument. I argue for a post-trib rapture
> >> interpretation from this passage for other reasons.>>
> >> I think your first post-trib should be pre-trib, at least I think that's
> >> you mean. While I do not think APOSTASIA refers to the rapture (I think it
> >> explained in 2:10-12), that view is not as nonsensical as you seem to make
> >> if the timing of the rapture is not clear in the Thessalonians minds.
> >> most pretribs do not teach that the rapture begins the day of the Lord or
> >> seven year tribulation. They see it as beginning with the signing of the
> >> covenant in Daniel 9:26-27 or the first seal of Rev 6. The rapture does
> >> a relationship to the Day of the Lord because it is bound with the
> >> but not necessarily as the beginning of the DOL.
> >No, I meant post-trib there. But, its not important.
> >What you say is interesting. While I attended DTS ('71-'75) I know that
> >the predominant view was that the rapture started the day of the Lord. If
> >the pretribs have changed, then it certainly indicates they acknowledged
> >the problems with it.
> >Would you care to summarize for me your pretrib understanding of the these
> >verses (v. 1-4)? Much thanks.
> >Psst, oh yeah. Be sure to throw in some Greek, so nobody on the Greek
> >list gets his nose out of joint.
> >Paul Dixon
> >End of b-greek-digest V1 #614
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