From: Mitchell Andrews (
Date: Thu Mar 06 1997 - 00:32:24 EST

> wrote:

>> <<I agree with your last sentence. However, there is
>> absolutely nothing in Col 1 referring to the birth of Jesus
>> by Mary. But there is something else of which the Colossians
>> may have had a knowledge, which more modern commentators
>> than not say Paul alludes to, and which almost all the
>> mentioned church fathers applied to Jesus, namely Proverbs
>> chapter 8.
>> I stress that such a comparison as to importance,in my
>> approach only relates to plane III. (Plane I: Linguistics
>> and philology of the passage, plane II:
>> linguistic/philological/ conceptual clues in the near
>> context, plane III: Bible patterns/parallels and theology). >> wrote:
>This reference to "plane I-II-III" is great. I love the precision which
>linguistics lend to the discussion. Plane II offers some serious
>competition. Luke's association with Paul's ministry team, probable
>with the church founder Epaphras, and association with the Colossian
>(4:14) place his writings and/or his sources/oral traditions (L) on a
>II level. The desciption of conception in Luke 1:35: PNEUMA AGION
>EPI SE KAI DUNAMIS UYISTOU EPISKIASEI SOI is the most radical as far as
>concerned. This would lend far more color to the concept of Jesus'
>that Ps. 8.

Dear Cindi and Rolf,

What are the bounds of Plane II where it crosses into Plane III? I
appreciate Cindi's thinking on the Col 4:14/ Luke 1:35 link, but I think
these kinds of links can work other ways as well.

For example, two verses after mentioning Luke (Col 4:14), Col 4:16 says
to have the Colossian letter also read to the Laodiceans. Jesus reminded
the Laodiceans several years later that he was "the beginning of the
creation tou theou" (he arche tes ktiseos tou theou), arguably a clear
reference to Prov 8:22 LXX "kurios ektisen me archn hodwn autou eis erga
autou" and perhaps recalling Col 1:15 to their minds. This "Plane II"
link would tend to strengthen the meaning of "prototokos" as being the

I do not bring up Rev. 3:14 for discussion since I would really rather
stay focused at this time on the linguistics of Plane II/ III. But I use
the Plane II "link to Luke 1:35" logic to show that it can also work
another way with a different link to Rev. 3:14. What are the set bounds
for Plane II, if any preciseness exists, before it to crosses into Plane

Mitchell Andrews

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