From: Mike Adams (email@example.com)
Date: Tue Mar 11 1997 - 10:04:38 EST
From: Carl W. Conrad <firstname.lastname@example.org>
To: Eric Weiss <email@example.com>
Subject: Re: Dative in John 4:23
Date: Tuesday, March 11, 1997 6:48 AM
At 9:33 AM -0600 3/11/97, Eric Weiss wrote:
>Re: Dative in John 4:23
>At 6:25 AM -0600 3/11/97, Andrew Kulikovsky wrote:
>>IN John 4:23 we find the following:
>>OTE OI ALHQINOI PROSKUNHTAI PROSKUNHSOUSIN TW PATRI EN PNEUMATI KAI
>>"when the true worshipper will worship the Father in spirit and truth"
>>Now, the question I have is what kind of dative is EN PNEUMATI KAI
>>ALHQEIA? How should I understand the KAI? Should I take this as two
>>separate datives, EN PNEUMATI and ALHQEIA, which are linked by KAI?
>>My gut feeling is that these are instrumental datives of manner. Brooks
>>and Winbery call it an Instrumental of Manner. I also checked Moule and
>>Zerwick but didn't find much help.
>>Assuming, it is an instrumental of manner and that this is one compound
>>dative, my translations would be:
>>"when the true worshipers will worship the father spiritually and
>Is there any significance to the fact that in 4:20 ff. the woman and
>Jesus say: "hOI PATERES hHMWN <EN TWi OREI TOUTWi> PROSKUNHSAN ...
>hUMEIS LEGETE hOTI <EN IEROSOLUMOIS>> ESTIN hO TOPOS ... LEGEI AUTHi hO
>IHSOUS ... OUTE <EN TWi OREI TOUTWi> OUTE <EN IEROSOLUMOIS> PROSKUNHSETE
>I.e., does this immediately preceding and contextually-related usage of
>EN as a place or perhaps sphere where one is to worship influence the
>interpretation of the EN in EN PNEUMATI KAI ALHQEIA?
I suppose you mean, Eric, the fact that the preposition EN is used with
those place names in 4:20. Quite frankly, I can't see how that is relevant
at all, since those are clearly Locative datives whereas EN PNEUMATI KAI
ALHQEIAi really MUST be an Instrumental dative.
I think Eric has a good question. I think this may be a play on words.
Do we worhip EN (location)? She thinking in term of the outward form.
He answers we worship EN, (manner), the inward worship of the heart.
Couldn't he have used DIA or no preposition at all and to say what
he meant. I think he repeated the EN to emphasize the point
that it is a matter how not where.
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