Re: Proffessor [sic] Blackwelder and participles

From: Dale M. Wheeler (dalemw@teleport.com)
Date: Mon Mar 16 1998 - 00:54:08 EST


Edgar Foster

>Dale Wheeler wrote:
>
>>Substantival Ptcs are just noun substitutes
>>in general, as they are in the above examples you cite. There is no
>>more an "ongoingness" to the use of the Present Subst Ptc, than there
>>is a "once-for-allness" to the Aorist Subst Ptc.
>
>I would agree here, if you mean that Present Participles don't ALWAYS =
>delineate "ongoingness." To say that a Pres. Part. NEVER describes
>ongoingness" is a different matter entirely.
>
>EN DE KAI hO IWANHS BAPTIZWN EN AINWN-John 3:23
>
>SPOUDAZONTES THREIN THN hENOTHTA TOU PNEUMATOS-Eph. 4:3
>
>KAI AUXANOMENOI TH EPIGNWSEI TOU QEOU-Col. 1:10
>

Edgar I was referring *specifically* to Substantival Ptcs and the examples
you gave are adverbial/circumstantial. Moreover, I didn't say that
the Subst Ptc couldn't *ever* have an "ongoingness" to them...but I'd
suggest that when they do its normally because of the Aktionsart of the
verb being used, not because of the Present Aspect.

>> The "tense" is chosen because its appropriate to the type of action
>>(Aktionsart) of the verb in question. "Hit" is a punctual and will
>>normally take an Aorist (unless the writer is trying to communicate
>>repeated hitting); "Believe" is normally a Climax (action leading to
>>a conclusion) for which either the Pres or Perf are natural. The
>>same is true in general for the uses of the tenses in the other moods.
>
>I agree that the Aktionsart of the verb regulates our understanding of
>the Present Part., but I would not agree that "Belief" has to be viewed
>as climactic. Belief is a way of life.
>
>EXOUSIAN TEKNA QEOU GENESEOQAI TOIS PISTEUOUSIN EIS TO ONOMA AUTOU-John =
>1:12
>
>hO PISTEUWN EIS TON hUION ECEI ZWHN AIWNION-John 3:36
>

Edgar, it would seem to me that you've crossed over from a discussion of
Greek grammar to a discussion of your theological perspective on faith.
I personally can see no justification for your view that "belief is a
way of life" (which is a theological statement I agree with) in the two
verses you listed above. As I said in my post to Paul Dixon, I'd read
these are normal uses of Subt Ptc as noun substitutes and, if one wants
to think of them aspectually, they are generic/gnomic.

>>hO PISTEUWN is simply someone who has made the decision, and is
>>being characterized as a person who accepts as true/valid certain
>>propositions.
>
>Again, I would take exception to this simplistic definition of PISTEUWN. =
>According to James 2:17, 26, PISTIS produces work. It is a way of life =
>and moved the ancients to obey God and walk continually with him (Heb. =
>11). The Primitive EKKLESIA was deemed The Way because of their lives of =
>continous faith which operated through love (Acts 9:1, 2; Gal. 5:6).

This again is a theological discussion informing the way you read other
passages which have PISTEUW in them. Whether I agree with your theological
perspective in James or not, in my mind doesn't have anything to do with
what I said about the Aktionsart of PISTEUW. In non-Subst Ptc situations
the use of the Pres and Impf with PISTEUW *may* nuance the Aktionsart of
the verb with the "imperfective" Aspect, thus producing in certain cases
the "feel" of "ongoingness" by focusing the reader's attention on the
process or on the effect.

>> You can also see the same problem with the John 5:24 example listed
>> above...if PISTEUWN must be "continuously", then the hearing *must*
>>be as well, since this is a Granville-Sharp construction (one article
>>with two sing, non-proper, personal nouns connected by KAI)...which
>>would mean that NOONE gets saved, since noone *continuously listens*.
>
>This all depends on how we define "listening." Other Scriptures also
>indicate the need for continual listening:
>
>EI GE EPIMENETE TH PISTEI TEQEMELIWMENOI KAI EDRAIOI KAI ME
METAKINOUMENOI-Col. 1:23

This verse doesn't say anything about "listening", it deals with
"remaining, abiding", which is by Aktionsart an activity, unbounded
and durative, and thus is linear. The present Aspect is natural.
The fact that it is "faith" that remains in doesn't in my mind have
anything to do with the discussion of PISTEUW. Again, you are
layering a theological judgment on top of my discussion of Greek
grammar. You are certainly free to hold any theological position you
want on these passages...but I'm trying desparately to avoid that
type of discussion. It still seems to me that if you use "I believe..."
in non-theologically freighted passages, the basic Aktionsart of
the verb is climax: "I believe in Constitution of the United States."
"I believe that this plane can fly."...etc.

XAIREIN...

***********************************************************************
Dale M. Wheeler, Ph.D.
Research Professor in Biblical Languages Multnomah Bible College
8435 NE Glisan Street Portland, OR 97220
Voice: 503-251-6416 FAX:503-254-1268 E-Mail: dalemw@teleport.com
***********************************************************************



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