RE: PROSWPON as Person - 2 Cor 1:11 and Heb 9:24

From: Williams, Wes (Wes.Williams@echostar.com)
Date: Fri Jul 24 1998 - 13:11:00 EDT


> Williams, Wes wrote:
> >
> > Would anyone rightly object to a translation of "people" or "persons"
> for
> > PROSWPWN (faces) at 2 Cor 1:11 and PROSWPWi ("person") at Heb 9:24?
> >
> Wes, a whole lot depends on the translation paradigm being used. If you
> are aiming at the dynamic equivalents, you MIGHT get by with this.
> However, for a more literal translation, I think you're leaving out some
> important secondary concepts.
>
Paul,

Well, you have a good point here. What is my translation target? Actually, I
like a recent approach I saw on the list where both a literal and a dynamic
equivalent submitted. As for my personal preference, I prefer a wooden
translation literalness (but not a hyperliteral ) over dynamic equalence and
I generally try to think in those terms. But you do make some good points
below with which I would like to interact.
>
        <snip>
>
> > At Hebrews 9:24, most English translations translate the
> > anthropomorphological EMFANISQHNAI TWi PROSWPWi TOU QEOU as "he appeared
> in
> > the presence of God" rather than "he appeared before the person of God".
> I
> > value trying to be consistent in translation and opt for the latter
> rather
> > than the former.
> >
> Again, if you are working on the basis of dynamic equivalence, you might
> have an easier time getting this accepted. However, if that were the
> case, I would probably opt for something like "appeared before God."
>
> In a more literal translation, I think that you are adding too much
> baggage if you use person of God. "Person of God" as opposed to what?
> a representative of God? the essense of God? "Person of God" in
> English idiom appears to be focussing on a characteristic of God in your
> translation rather than the location of the presentation. That does not
> seem to go along with the sense of the verse, which does focus on the
> location.
>
"Person of God" as opposed to a symbolic representation of God.

Actually Paul, I agree with you that "presence" is an attribute of PROSWPON
in this verse. However, I do not believe the author is stressing that here
ith PROSWPON. He has already stressed that with AUTON TON OURANON. I believe
the author is indeed stressing God *himself* with the use of PROSWPON. Let
me explain briefly.

The author of Hebrews is comparing/ contrasting Jesus with Israel's High
Priest, who entered into the Most Holy (location) and stood before the ark,
entering God's presence SYMBOLICALLY. The antitype (Heb 9:24) is that Jesus
actually enters AUTON TON OURANON (location) before the PROSWPON of God
HIMSELF (as opposed to a symbolic representation). Thus, location is an
attribute, but the emphasis is on the PROSWPON of God, his very person, his
being. I simply intend the word "person" in the normal English definition of
"being" or "individual" as it is in 2 Cor 1:11.

Thus, to answer your very good question that I had to think about, the term
"Person of God" as opposed to a symbolic representation of God.
>
> "Presence" may not be quite strong enough to pick up the all force of
> what appears to be a Hebrew idiom, but "person" seems too strong, too
> distracting from what is being brought out.
>
To be sure, your objections surface questions in the use of "person" with
God as distinct from its use with man. If some are uncomfortable with
"person" here for theological reasons, how does one translate the nuance of
the author's emphasis? Perhaps "now to appear before God himself"? Perhaps
you have some alternative thoughts along this line? However, with a literal
translation we wish to minimize theological considerations. That is why I
proposed "person" for PROSWPON, the intent being that Jesus stands before
God himself. I am welcome to other proposals to translating PROSWPON here.

As a final comment, I see the same emphasis on his person in Acts 3:19 the
seasons of refreshing come APW PROSWPOU TOU KURIOU (the Lord himself/ person
of the Lord). Whereas in Acts 3:13 KATA PROSWPON PEILATOU has the location
attribute in view.

Sincerely,
Wes Williams
>

---
B-Greek home page: http://sunsite.unc.edu/bgreek
You are currently subscribed to b-greek as: [cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu]
To unsubscribe, forward this message to leave-b-greek-329W@franklin.oit.unc.edu
To subscribe, send a message to subscribe-b-greek@franklin.oit.unc.edu


This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Sat Apr 20 2002 - 15:39:54 EDT