From: Carl W. Conrad (email@example.com)
Date: Wed Apr 07 1999 - 08:52:02 EDT
At 9:59 PM -0300 4/6/99, Antonio Eduardo Costa Pereira wrote:
>I am not oficially in the B-Greek, because I don't have an email, and I
>this is required to join the list. I contacted Carl W. Conrad about the
>of joining with the email of a friend, but I didn't receive an answer as yet.
Let me first rectify that problem: I didn't understand exactly what it was
that you were asking--and the fault lay not in your English but in my
ability to understand it! Sometimes English is Greek to me, although I
can't quite reverse that statement ;-)
If there is no workaround on the software (and that's not within my
expertise), I don't see any objection to your reading and responding to
B-Greek messages from within Costa's e-mail and list-membership. What I
suggest you do is identify yourself in each message at the end with a
signature as "Carlos Navarro." You might also put your own name in the
parenthetical identifier in the "FROM" header in place of Costa's--I think
Lyris will accept that (we'll soon find out when I try to send this present
>However, I cannot resist the oportunity of commenting some of the articles
>that I find most interesting. Below, you will find a few comments on your
>They are based on Konstantinos' grammar. You can find part of
>in the following site:
Since Senhor Navarro refers to the terminology of Konstantinos' grammar at
the above-indicated web-site, a grammar that is composed in good classical
(I think it is more nearly Attic than KAQAREUOUSA?), I just thought it
might be helpful to note that the distinction referred to there between
"PROSDIORISMOS" and "KATHGORHMA H KATHGOROUMENON" is, of course, the
distinction drawn in English grammars of ancient Greek between
"Attributive" and "Predicative" constructions of article, epithet, and
PROSDIORISMOS = "Attributive" position/construction of the article
KATHGORHMA/KATHGOROUMENON = "Predicative" position/construction of the
>Regarding the use of THi in "EN PISTEI ZW THi TOU hUIOU TOU QEOU."
>Languages have different grammatica structure. In Greek, the article may
>in two syntactical constructions. Konstantinos says:
>hH ARQROU SUNTACIS ESTI TOIADE:
>TO MEN EPIQETON hEPOMENON TWi ARQRWi ONOMAZETAI
>PROSDIORISMOS. TO DE MH hEPOMENON KATHGORHMA H
>KATHGOROUMENON LEGETAI. P. X.
> hH PRESBUTEROS PAIS PARWN ETUGXANE
> hO ANHR AGAQOS
>hOTAN hH FRASIS EXHi KATHGOROUMENON EPIQETON, hO NOUS ESTI
>hOMOION THi FRASEI EXOUSHi SUNDETION RHMA - SUNDETIKA RHMATA
>ESTI: EIMI, GIGNETAI, FAINOMAI, K.T.L.
>To make a long story short, the article can be used in two syntactic
>Prosdiorismon and Kategoroumenon. When it is used in a Prosdiorismon, it is
>more or less like the English article (I guess, because my English is not
>In the Prosdiorismon construction, the article precedes the EPIQETA
>that reduces the extension of the name; EPIQETA can be adjectives,
>prepositional phrases, genitives, or even a name used to restrict the
>often than not, the EPIQETA becomes sandwiched between the article and the
>In the Kategoroumenon construction, the article doesn't precedes the EPIQETA.
>This construction carries the force of verbs like "to be" and "to become",
>which in Greek are called SUNDETIKA RHMATA (I don't know the English name).
>Now, pay attention to this point (which was not emphasized
>by Konstantinos because he probably didn't know languages with a fixed word
>order, like English, French, and Portuguese): In Greek, the word order is
>Therefore, the Prosdiorismon can be constructed in many ways, the only
>being that the EPITHETA follow the article. Therefore, you have a very good
>example of Prosdiorismon in the sentence below:
>"EN PISTEI ZW THi TOU hUIOU TOU QEOU."
>The EPIQETON is the genitive TOU hUIOU.
>This sentence could also be written as:
>"EN THi TOU hUIOU TOU QEOU PISTEI ZW."
>Here you have an interesting construction. The article that precedes QEOU
>is not the article of that precedes hUIOU. This means that, with respect to
>the article that precedes hUIOU, TOU QEOU is in the Kategoroumenon
>construction. In other words, you can consider that a SUNDETIKON verb
>is linking TOU hUIOU to TOU QEOU. This verb cannot be explicitly expressed
>because its name is in the genitive case. Remember: SUNDETIKON verbs can
>be expressed when its name is in the nominatve. Otherwise, they must be
>represented by the Kategoroumenon construction.
>This second version would mean the same thing, but would reduce the
>emphasis given to PISTEI.
>Let's see the second example. Here, you have a name that is not followed
>by the article. In this case, the Kategoroumenon construction has the force
>of a SUNDETIKON verb. However, that verb is much weaker than the
>verb of a relative clause.
>SAULOS, hO KAI PAULOS = Saulos is became Paulos too, or Saulos is Paulos too.
>With the relative pronoun, the verb would be emphasized, and the dicothomy
>must be resolved.
>SAULOS hOS ESTI KAI PAULOS= Saulos, who is Paulo too.
I like this second illustration very much, and I think it neatly
characterizes the quasi-appositional force of the attributive construction
where the article and epithet FOLLOW the original noun; my own way of
expressing the above would be: "Saul, i.e. Paul" -- OR -- "Saul, a.k.a.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics/Washington University
One Brookings Drive/St. Louis, MO, USA 63130/(314) 935-4018
Home: 7222 Colgate Ave./St. Louis, MO 63130/(314) 726-5649
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