From: George Blaisdell (firstname.lastname@example.org)
Date: Fri Apr 09 1999 - 14:44:02 EDT
Carl, Carlos, and Carlton [!!!] and all other carlitos...
I am loving this thread!
>From: "Carl W. Conrad" [shamelessly snipped]
>I think that the basic
>grammatical accounts presented in Senhor Navarro's message are lifted
>directly from the Boethetika Biblia of Euphylax Constantinos which is
>posted at the web site in Brazil from which he is writing to us; I'm
>sure whether this is a modern work composed in the KAQAREUOUSA or a
>Byzantine work, but it looks to me like its Greek is more akin to
>than to Koine and also it appears to me that its grammatical
>consistent with that of grammarians of late antiquity.
Thanks for this ~ It has had a feel to me of being in the tradition of
the Byzantine fathers ~ Who have been noticably absented in most of
our b-greek discussions of grammatical structures. Having this
perspective 'on board' would seem to be a great blessing for us.
>Carlton Winbery wrote:
>>Carl replied to this by pointing out that
>>the two words PROSDIORISMOI and
>>KATHGOROUMENA mean attributive and predicative
>>respectively. I agree...
I looked at PROS-DI(a)-hORISMOI as a compound word with some benefit.
Catagory is easier for English [KATHGOROUMENA]
The first adds a 'horizon' [attribute] to a term.
The second encloses it in an encompassing term.
Outward vision vs inward placement.
PISTEI ZW THi TOU hUIOU TOU QEOU.
>>Again my assertion was that the article
>>shows that the modifying element modifies
>>PISTEI because the article agrees (concord)
>>with this word in case, gender and number.
Indeed so. The core sentence of course is simply ZW. PISTEI and THi
TOU hUIOU TOU QEOU are balanced around it [ZW]. Since there are many
possible PISTEIs, the one in which "I am living" is specified
attributively. [PROSDIORISMON] [eg 'The one with THIS attribute: TOU
hUIOU TOU QEOU.]
>And I think EPIQETON here is
>being used, as it was in the ancient grammarians, for any kind of
>descriptive word or phrase that can be attached to a substantive by
>implication or explicitly by putting an article before it.
>>Man, we got a lot of discussion out of
>>such a simple construction as
>>EN PISTEI ZW THi TOU hUIOU TOU QEOU.
As well we might!
>>"I live by trusting the Son of God."
I seriously question this rendering, because it makes a translational
choice [objective rather than subjective genitive] that the Greek
construction does not make. I would approach it on the understanding
that the Greek is generic of both, and that we should honor that
ambiguity in translation, lest we mistranslate...
Hence the use of brackets in the literal rendering:
"In faith I am living, in that [faith] of the Son of God."
>I have to add one "concluding unscientific
>postscript" about subjective and objective
>genitive: while context may help
>to determine whether hH TOU QEOU AGAPH
>means "God's love (for us)" or "love
>of/for God" in some particular instance, there is absolutely no
>morphological distinction between this phrase when interpreted as a
>"subjective" and/or as an "objective" genitive--and the syntactical
>distinction may very well be "in the eye of the (particular)
Precisely so, which clearly argues for the generic [literal]
>Often enough the context
>makes clear how the phrase should be
>interpreted, but there are instances
>in the GNT where the issue is NOT clear.
Ciao Carl, Carlton, Carlos y todos los otros Carlitos!
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