From: Carl W. Conrad (email@example.com)
Date: Wed Jun 16 1999 - 07:12:22 EDT
At 8:27 AM +0100 6/16/99, Jonathan Ryder wrote:
>"Carl W. Conrad" wrote:
>> >24 DIO KAI PAREDWKEN AUTOUS hO QEOS EN TAIS EPIQUMIAIS TWN KARDIWN AUTWN
>> >EIS AKAQARSIAN TOU ATIMAZESQAI TA SWNATA AUTWN EN(!) EAUTOIS
>> >27 OMOIWS TE KAI ARSENES AFENTES THS FUSIKHN CRHSIN THS QHLEIAS EXEKAUQHSAN
>> >EN TH OREXEI AUTON EIS ALLHLOUS ARSENES EN(!) ARSESIN THN ASCHMOSUNHN
>> >KATERGAZOMENOI KAI THN ANTIMISQIAN HN EDEI THS PLANHS AUTWN EN(!) EAUTOIS
>> I would understand each instance of EN that you mark with exclamation mark
>> in these verses as an instrumental-comitative dative and use "with" to
>> convey the sense into English.
>Is there anywhere on the web where one can get a definition of
>'instrumental-comitative dative', or for that matter if not on the web
>printed resource that anyone recommends.
>While we're at it, I'm sure there are others who are just as bewildered at
>times as I
>when some of these grammatical terms are used, especially as some work
>sets of terms which they would allow etc etc. I'm all for those who go for 9
>genitives instead of 39 (arbitrary numbers)
>So, can anyone suggest a beginners guide to all the different types of
>dative, aorist etc (preferably the fewer the better!)?
>If only that we might be speaking intelligibly to one another in English
>trying to understand the greek ...
So far as "instrumental-comitative case" is concerned, I'd suggest looking at
.e. Smyth's Greek Grammar, #1503).
Occasionally there is (pedagogical) discussion on this list as to whether
we should teach/learn a five-case system or an eight-case system. When I
start out in Greek on the case-system, I usually go over the following very
elementary introduction; here's the account I offered of it last Fall on
this list in a brief thread entitled "Re: 5 case system vs. 8 case system":
>Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 05:15:18 -0500
>To: Biblical Greek <firstname.lastname@example.org>
>From: "Carl W. Conrad" <email@example.com>
>Subject: Re: 5 case system vs. 8 case system
>At 2:56 AM -0500 10/22/98, Byron P. Knutson wrote:
>>I was out looking at grammars today ( haven't bought any for a few years)
>>and it seems that all those I've found that are new are 5 case system
>>grammars. ATR pushed the 8 case system and I thought many thought highly of
>>his work and scholarship enough to follow it. The newer scholarship must
>>have reasons for going back to the 5 case system like the Classical Greek
>>grammars do/did. Is there any discussion on this by those who have kept up
>>on this aspect of the research?
>I don't think this is so much a matter of research, personally. I work more
>with Classical Attic than with Koine, and I only refer to five cases, but I
>think that some of the functions are so readily distinguishable in terms of
>original IE cases that I teach the cases at the outset as:
> Partitive Genitive: basic sense of "part of," "some of"
> Pertinentive or Adnominal Genitive: basic sense of "of"
> Ablatival Genitive: basic sense of "from"
> True Dative: basic sense of "to," "for"
> Instrumental-Comitative Dative: basic sense of "with"
> Locative Dative: basic sense of "in," "on," or "at"
>Of course Nominative and Accusative are distinct cases reasonably clearly
>defined; and some would refer to Vocative as a real case, although I'd say
>it's just a form of the noun without a distinct ending.
>It's true that some secondary Genitive meanings may appear difficult to
>assign to one of the three Genitive categories, and I think that more than
>economy is involved in the historical assimilation of originally distinct
>case functions to a smaller number of case endings--but it's hard to get
>too precise about that. I just personally think it's easier to
>understand--and explain-- the great bulk of functional case usages if they
>are broken down as I have suggested in terms of the historical IE
I hope that helps a little, but there's a sizable literature on the subject.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
Summer: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
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