Re: 'instrumental-comitative dative' - beginners guide to grammatical terms

From: Jonathan Ryder (
Date: Wed Jun 16 1999 - 11:26:45 EDT

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"Carl W. Conrad" wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>So far as "instrumental-comitative case" is concerned,
I'd suggest looking at
<br>(i.e. Smyth's Greek Grammar, #1503).
<p>Occasionally there is (pedagogical) discussion on this list as to whether
<br>we should teach/learn a five-case system or an eight-case system. When
<br>start out in Greek on the case-system, I usually go over the following
<br>elementary introduction; here's the account I offered of it last Fall
<br>this list in a brief thread entitled "Re: 5 case system vs. 8 case
<p>>At 2:56 AM -0500 10/22/98, Byron P. Knutson wrote:
<br>>>I was out looking at grammars today ( haven't bought any for a few
<br>>>and it seems that all those I've found that are new are 5 case system
<br>>>grammars.&nbsp; ATR pushed the 8 case system and I thought many thought
highly of
<br>>>his work and scholarship enough to follow it.&nbsp; The newer scholarship
<br>>>have reasons for going back to the 5 case system like the Classical
<br>>>grammars do/did.&nbsp; Is there any discussion on this by those who
have kept up
<br>>>on this aspect of the research?
<br>>I don't think this is so much a matter of research, personally. I
work more
<br>>with Classical Attic than with Koine, and I only refer to five cases,
but I
<br>>think that some of the functions are so readily distinguishable in
terms of
<br>>original IE cases that I teach the cases at the outset as:
<br>>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Partitive Genitive: basic sense
of "part of," "some of"
<br>>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Pertinentive or Adnominal Genitive:
basic sense of "of"
<br>>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Ablatival Genitive: basic sense
of "from"
<br>>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; True Dative: basic sense of "to,"
<br>>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Instrumental-Comitative Dative:
basic sense of "with"
<br>>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Locative Dative: basic sense
of "in," "on," or "at"
<br>>Of course Nominative and Accusative are distinct cases reasonably
<br>>defined; and some would refer to Vocative as a real case, although
I'd say
<br>>it's just a form of the noun without a distinct ending.
<br>>It's true that some secondary Genitive meanings may appear difficult
<br>>assign to one of the three Genitive categories, and I think that more
<br>>economy is involved in the historical assimilation of originally distinct
<br>>case functions to a smaller number of case endings--but it's hard
to get
<br>>too precise about that. I just personally think it's easier to
<br>>understand--and explain-- the great bulk of functional case usages
if they
<br>>are broken down as I have suggested in terms of the historical IE
<p>I hope that helps a little, but there's a sizable literature on the
Ok so far, but what about prepositions. Do the cases following the prepositions
still fit into the 8 categories suggested above? The example we've been
discussing (EN + dative) obviously does. Would it be true to say that EN
+ dative is always 'instrumental-comitative'? Can such statements be made
about all prepositions with their respective cases?
<p>Jonathan Ryder</html>


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