Re: Rev 18:20

From: Carl W. Conrad (
Date: Sat Jun 19 1999 - 17:58:13 EDT

<x-rich>At 1:56 PM -0400 6/19/99, Bill Barton wrote:

>Carl Conrad wrote:


>CC>No, EK in this instance [Rev 18:20] must mean (oddly) "with

>to", an extraordinary extension of "arising from", i.e., it really

>start out as an ablatival genitive, but passes over into a semantic

>close to what one expects with an accusative of respect or dative of




>Some other examples of the idiom "avenge from":



>Rev 6:10 God is entreated to judge the martyrs "from (ek) the

>of the earth."


>Rev 19:2 God avenged the blood of his servants "from (ek) her hand."


>Luke 18:3 The widow entreated the judge to avenge her "from (apo) my



>Deut 18:19 in LXX God said of those who ignored the Prophet "I will

>myself from (ek) him."


>1 Sam 24:13 in LXX David said to Saul "may the Lord avenge me from




>Could it be that the sense of the idiom is that the judgment removes

>something from the one judged, so that the use of EK with the genitive

>in the sense of separation?

I suppose it could be a Semitism; on the other hand, what leaped
immediately to my mind when I saw this was a Latin idiom, SUPPLICIUM
SUMERE DE ALIQUO, "to exact punishment from someone": Here is the
section from the Lewis & Short Latin dictionary at the Perseus site,
s.v. SUMO.

supplicium sumere, <italic>to exact satisfaction</italic>,
<italic>inflict punishment</italic>, rarely <italic>absol.</italic>:
supplici sibi sumat, quod volt ipse, ob hanc injuriam,
<color><param>0000,0000,FFFF</param>Plaut. Merc. 5.4.31</color>: satis
sumpsimus jam supplici, <color><param>0000,0000,FFFF</param>id. Pers.
5.2.72</color>: graviore sententi‰ pronuntiat‰ more majorum supplicium
sumpsit, <color><param>0000,0000,FFFF</param>Caes. B. G.
6.44</color>.--Usu. <italic>de aliquo</italic>: potuisse hunc de ill‰
supplicium sumere, Cic. Inv. 2, 27, 82: tum homo nefarius de homine
nobili virgis supplicium crudelissime sumeret,
<color><param>0000,0000,FFFF</param>id. Verr. 2.2.37.¤ 91</color>:
supplicium de matre sumpsisse, <color><param>0000,0000,FFFF</param>Cic.
Rosc. Am. 24.66</color>; Liv. 39, 29; cf. supplicium.--Rarely
<italic>ex aliquo</italic>, Liv. 23, 3, 1.-- Post-class. also
<italic>ab aliquo</italic>, Val. Max. 4, 1, ext. 1; 5, 1, ext.
2.--Rarely poenam sumere ( = capere): pro maleficio poenam sumi
oportere, Cic. Inv. 2, 36, 108: merentis poenas,
<color><param>0000,0000,FFFF</param>Verg. A. 2.586</color>: poenam
scelerato ex sanguine, <color><param>0000,0000,FFFF</param>id. ib.
12.949</color>; cf. <color><param>0000,0000,FFFF</param>id. ib.

Carl W. Conrad

Department of Classics, Washington University

Summer: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243



This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Sat Apr 20 2002 - 15:40:31 EDT