From: Carl W. Conrad (firstname.lastname@example.org)
Date: Sun Feb 13 2000 - 12:42:02 EST
<x-rich>At 11:23 AM -0500 2/13/00, Jon R. Venema wrote:
>Message text written by "Carl W. Conrad"
>At 6:12 PM -0800 2/12/00, John Wilking wrote:
>>F.F. Bruce tried to make the point that APOKALUYAI TON hUION AUTOU EN
>>in Galations 1:16 should or could be translated "reveal his son to
>>also have FANERON ESTIN EN AUTOIS in Romans 1:19 which James Dunn
>>as "is evident to them." The prepositional phrase seems to be
>>the following AUTOIS in the same verse. It seems that EN may have
>>of "to". Perhaps it has this meaning when it is collocated with
>>>Meaning, I suppose, with verbs of showing? I remain quite
>>>although I respect Bruce and Dunn; I could accept "among them" or
>>>midst" for EN AUTOIS, but not "to them"; and in Gal 1:16 I could
>>>EMOI as "by me" or "through my agency" but I'm not yet ready to
>>>dative as expressing a dative of reference or indirect object.
>>>all due respect to Bruce and Dunn, I'd need to see on what basis
>>>to argue that EN + dative in those verses has the force of an
>>>dative of indirect object.
>>>Anybody else have some input into this question?
>What do you make of these references in Zechariah 1:9,13,14,17;
>5:5,10; 6:4,5? All of the references involvl LALEIN with EN EMOI.
>An associative idea? The impression, however, comes close to an
>dative of indirect object. Interesting.
>Jon R. Venema
<color><param>0000,7777,0000</param>Interesting indeed! And well
repaying the effort of a closer look. I have checked each of these
passages and what I have discovered does not turn out to be evidence
that LALEIN with EN EMOI is equivalent to "speak TO me." Rather each of
these instances involves a locative or instrumental dative with EN and
refers to the 'messenger' or 'voice' of God whose voice is heard WITHIN
the vision of the prophet, so that we have the recurrent phrase, hO
AGGELOS hO LALWN EN EMOI: "the messenger/angel speaking
IN/WITHIN/BY-MEANS-OF ME." With this angel or messenger the prophet
Zechariah reports that he has a conversation and when he says that he
speaks to or answers this angel/messenger or the angel/messenger
speaks to or answers him, the verb of speaking/answering is used either
with a dative or (more commonly) with a PROS + accusative. That's my
conclusion from an examination of these texts. But here they are, so
that you can judge for yourself whether EN EMOI in any single one of
these 'comes close to an ordinary dative of indirect object.'
Zech. 1:9 KAI EIPA TI hOUTOI KURIE KAI EIPEN PROS ME hO AGGELOS hO
LALWN EN EMOI EGW DEIXW SOI TI ESTIN TAUTA
Notice: "and the angel speaking in me said to me, "I shall show you
what these things are"
Zech. 1:13 KAI APEKRIQH KURIOS PANTOKRATWR TWi AGGELWi TWi LALOUNTI EN
EMOI hRHMATA KALA KAi LOGOUS PARAKLHTIKOUS, 14 KAI EIPEN PROS ME hO
AGGELOS hO LALWN EN EMOI ANAKRAGE LEGWN TADA LEGEI KURIOS ...
"... answered the angel speaking in me fine phrases and comforting
words and the angel speaking in me said, "'Cry out saying, 'thus says
the Lord ..."
Zech. 1:17 KAI EIPEN PROS ME hO AGGELOS hO LALWN EN EMOI ANAKRAGE LEGWN
TADE LEGE KURIOS ...
"... and the angel speaking en me said to me, "Cry out saying, 'thus
says the Lord ..."
Zech. 2:2 KAI EIPA PROS TON AGGELON TON LALOUNTA EN EMOI TI ESTIN TAUTA
KURIE KAI EIPEN PROS ME ...
" ... and I said to the angel speaking in me, 'what are these things,
Lord?' and he said to me ..."
Zech. 2:7 KAI IDOU hO AGGELOS hO LALWN EN EMOI hEISTHKEI KAI AGGELOS
hETEROS EXEPOREUETO EIS SUNANTHSIN AUTWi 8 KAI EIPEN PROS AUTON LEGWN
DRAME KAI LALHSON PROS TON NEANIAN EKEINON ...
" ... and behold the angel speaking in me stood and a second angel came
out to meet him and said to him, saying, 'run and speak to that young
Zech. 4:1 KAI EPESTREYEN hO AGGELOS hO LALWN EN EMOI KAI EXHGEIREN ME
" ... and the angel speaking in me turned and raised me up ..."
Zech. 4:4 KAI EPHRWTHSA KAI EIPON PROS TON AGGELON TON LALOUNTA EN EMOI
LEGWN TI ESTIN TAUTA KURIE 5 KAI APEKRIQH hO AGGELOS hO LALWN EN EMOI
KAI EIPEN PROS ME ...
" ... and I asked and said to the angel speaking in me, saying, 'what
are these things, Lord, and the angel speaking in me answered and said
to me ..."
Zech. 5:5 KAI EXHLQEN hO AGGELOS hO LALWN EN EMOI KAI EIPEN PROS ME
ANABLEYON TOIS OFQALMOIS SOU ...
" ... and the angel speaking in me came out and said to me, 'Look up
with your eyes ..."
Zech. 5:10 KAI EIPA PROS TON AGGELON TON LALOUNTA EN EMOI POU hAUTAI
APOFEROUSIN TO METRON
" ... and I said to the angel speaking in me, 'what do these refer
Zech. 6:4 KAI APEKRIQHN KAI EIPA PROS TON AGGELON TON LALOUNTA EN EMOI
TI ESTIN TAUTA KURIE 5 KAI APEKRIQH hO AGGELOS hO LALWN EN EMOI KAI
EIPEN TAUTA ESTIN hOI TESSARES ANEMOI ...
" ... and I answered and said to the angel speaking in me, 'What are
these things, Lord, 5 and the angel speaking in me answered and said,
'These are the four winds ...'"
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics/Washington University
One Brookings Drive/St. Louis, MO, USA 63130/(314) 935-4018
Home: 7222 Colgate Ave./St. Louis, MO 63130/(314) 726-5649
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