From: Joe A. Friberg (JoeFriberg@email.msn.com)
Date: Sun Feb 13 2000 - 17:33:38 EST
In the Zechariah passages, is not the hO AGGELOS hO LALWN EN EMOI simply to
be taken as 'the angel who was speaking *with* me'? I might call this
function 'accompaniment' or 'interaction', though there may be a better (and
'official') label for it. Also, I strongly suspect that this is not a
native Greek construction, but merely a rigid tranlsation of underlying
Hebrew BI; this Hebrew B- readily lends itself to the accompaniment
Back on the Rom 1.16-17 passage, if the EN AUTWi is taken to refer back to
the TWi PISTEUONTI, I would see this phrase not as an Indirect Object 'to
him', but a locative (which has been mentioned already), meaning
'within/in-the-sphere-of him'. Thus, the gospel is the power of God for
salvation to the believer, and the righteousness of God is revealed/worked
out in the life of the believer, so as to make him/her righteous. I must
say that this reading makes a lot of sense to me at the moment, though I
have never read it thus before.
I am curious what yet others might think!
Joe A. Friberg
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <email@example.com>
To: "Biblical Greek" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Cc: "Biblical Greek" <email@example.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: Romans 1:16,17 - The antecedent of EN AUTW
> At 11:23 AM -0500 2/13/00, Jon R. Venema wrote:
> >Message text written by "Carl W. Conrad"
> >At 6:12 PM -0800 2/12/00, John Wilking wrote:
> >>F.F. Bruce tried to make the point that APOKALUYAI TON hUION AUTOU EN
> >>in Galations 1:16 should or could be translated "reveal his son to me."
> >>also have FANERON ESTIN EN AUTOIS in Romans 1:19 which James Dunn
> >>as "is evident to them." The prepositional phrase seems to be
> >>the following AUTOIS in the same verse. It seems that EN may have the
> >>of "to". Perhaps it has this meaning when it is collocated with certain
> >>>Meaning, I suppose, with verbs of showing? I remain quite unconvinced,
> >>>although I respect Bruce and Dunn; I could accept "among them" or "in
> >>>midst" for EN AUTOIS, but not "to them"; and in Gal 1:16 I could accept
> >>>EMOI as "by me" or "through my agency" but I'm not yet ready to accept
> >>>dative as expressing a dative of reference or indirect object. Again,
> >>>all due respect to Bruce and Dunn, I'd need to see on what basis they
> >>>to argue that EN + dative in those verses has the force of an ordinary
> >>>dative of indirect object.
> >>>Anybody else have some input into this question?
> >What do you make of these references in Zechariah 1:9,13,14,17; 2:2,7;
> >5:5,10; 6:4,5? All of the references involvl LALEIN with EN EMOI.
> >An associative idea? The impression, however, comes close to an ordinary
> >dative of indirect object. Interesting.
> >Jon R. Venema
> >Western Seminary
> Interesting indeed! And well repaying the effort of a closer look. I have
> checked each of these passages and what I have discovered does not turn
> to be evidence that LALEIN with EN EMOI is equivalent to "speak TO me."
> Rather each of these instances involves a locative or instrumental dative
> with EN and refers to the 'messenger' or 'voice' of God whose voice is
> heard WITHIN the vision of the prophet, so that we have the recurrent
> phrase, hO AGGELOS hO LALWN EN EMOI: "the messenger/angel speaking
> IN/WITHIN/BY-MEANS-OF ME." With this angel or messenger the prophet
> Zechariah reports that he has a conversation and when he says that he
> speaks to or answers this angel/messenger or the angel/messenger speaks
> or answers him, the verb of speaking/answering is used either with a
> or (more commonly) with a PROS + accusative. That's my conclusion from an
> examination of these texts. But here they are, so that you can judge for
> yourself whether EN EMOI in any single one of these 'comes close to an
> ordinary dative of indirect object.'
> Zech. 1:9 KAI EIPA TI hOUTOI KURIE KAI EIPEN PROS ME hO AGGELOS hO LALWN
> EMOI EGW DEIXW SOI TI ESTIN TAUTA
> Notice: "and the angel speaking in me said to me, "I shall show you what
> these things are"
> Zech. 1:13 KAI APEKRIQH KURIOS PANTOKRATWR TWi AGGELWi TWi LALOUNTI EN
> hRHMATA KALA KAi LOGOUS PARAKLHTIKOUS, 14 KAI EIPEN PROS ME hO AGGELOS hO
> LALWN EN EMOI ANAKRAGE LEGWN TADA LEGEI KURIOS ...
> "... answered the angel speaking in me fine phrases and comforting words
> and the angel speaking in me said, "'Cry out saying, 'thus says the Lord
> Zech. 1:17 KAI EIPEN PROS ME hO AGGELOS hO LALWN EN EMOI ANAKRAGE LEGWN
> TADE LEGE KURIOS ...
> "... and the angel speaking en me said to me, "Cry out saying, 'thus says
> the Lord ..."
> Zech. 2:2 KAI EIPA PROS TON AGGELON TON LALOUNTA EN EMOI TI ESTIN TAUTA
> KURIE KAI EIPEN PROS ME ...
> " ... and I said to the angel speaking in me, 'what are these things,
> Lord?' and he said to me ..."
> Zech. 2:7 KAI IDOU hO AGGELOS hO LALWN EN EMOI hEISTHKEI KAI AGGELOS
> hETEROS EXEPOREUETO EIS SUNANTHSIN AUTWi 8 KAI EIPEN PROS AUTON LEGWN
> KAI LALHSON PROS TON NEANIAN EKEINON ...
> " ... and behold the angel speaking in me stood and a second angel came
> to meet him and said to him, saying, 'run and speak to that young man'
> Zech. 4:1 KAI EPESTREYEN hO AGGELOS hO LALWN EN EMOI KAI EXHGEIREN ME ...
> " ... and the angel speaking in me turned and raised me up ..."
> Zech. 4:4 KAI EPHRWTHSA KAI EIPON PROS TON AGGELON TON LALOUNTA EN EMOI
> LEGWN TI ESTIN TAUTA KURIE 5 KAI APEKRIQH hO AGGELOS hO LALWN EN EMOI KAI
> EIPEN PROS ME ...
> " ... and I asked and said to the angel speaking in me, saying, 'what are
> these things, Lord, and the angel speaking in me answered and said to me
> Zech. 5:5 KAI EXHLQEN hO AGGELOS hO LALWN EN EMOI KAI EIPEN PROS ME
> ANABLEYON TOIS OFQALMOIS SOU ...
> " ... and the angel speaking in me came out and said to me, 'Look up with
> your eyes ..."
> Zech. 5:10 KAI EIPA PROS TON AGGELON TON LALOUNTA EN EMOI POU hAUTAI
> APOFEROUSIN TO METRON
> " ... and I said to the angel speaking in me, 'what do these refer to?'"
> Zech. 6:4 KAI APEKRIQHN KAI EIPA PROS TON AGGELON TON LALOUNTA EN EMOI TI
> ESTIN TAUTA KURIE 5 KAI APEKRIQH hO AGGELOS hO LALWN EN EMOI KAI EIPEN
> TAUTA ESTIN hOI TESSARES ANEMOI ...
> " ... and I answered and said to the angel speaking in me, 'What are these
> things, Lord, 5 and the angel speaking in me answered and said, 'These are
> the four winds ...'"
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics/Washington University
> One Brookings Drive/St. Louis, MO, USA 63130/(314) 935-4018
> Home: 7222 Colgate Ave./St. Louis, MO 63130/(314) 726-5649
> WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
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