Date: Fri Mar 03 2000 - 14:32:16 EST
On Fri, 3 Mar 2000 10:16:35 -0600 "Carl W. Conrad"
> At 9:14 AM -0800 3/3/00, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
> >On Fri, 03 Mar 2000 23:21:19 +1100 Ward Powers
> >> So here is the issue: On what basis (if any) can we conclude that
> >> John uses PISTEUW in a context such as John 8;30-31 to mean
> >> some kind of "believing" other than what he means in John 3:15
> >> -18 (et al.)? That is, to mean a "believing" which is not
> >> "spirit-generated" but which can be used in reference to people
> >> described as children of the devil (8:42-44) and who do not belong
> >> to God (8:47). Are there any other passages where John clearly
> >> uses PISTEUW in such a way?
> >> I tend to think that when John uses PISTEUW it is in reference to
> >> saving faith. Do I need to modify this understanding of his use of
> >> this word?
> >How about on the basis of the usage of PISTEUW in Jn 2:23-25
> >where POLLOI EPISTEUSAN EIS TO ONOMA AUTOU, but
> >where also AUTOS DE IHSOUS OUK EPISTEUEN AUTON
> >AUTOIS, because (hOTI ... GAR) AUTOS ... GINWSKEN
> >TI HN EN TWi ANQRWPWi.
> This will hardly do: it's a different usage of PISTEUW with a reflexive
> accusative and dative: "would not ENTRUST himself to them. On the
> other hand, it does point to a situation where there is at least a
> coming to faith on the part of individuals whom Jesus himself knows he
> cannot trust, and to that extent it seems parallel to the situation in
> chapter 8 of John. At any rate, however, the meaning of PISTEUW in the
> verse is not the same as that in the other.
I hoped no one would think my response was directed specifically to the
second usage of PISTEUW in Jn 2:23-25. Sorry for not clarifying. But, I
agree. Here and elsewhere, even in John's Gospel I believe, we will
find usages of PISTEUW EIS or EN where there is an indication of
something less than faith of regeneration.
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics/Washington University
> One Brookings Drive/St. Louis, MO, USA 63130/(314) 935-4018
> Home: 7222 Colgate Ave./St. Louis, MO 63130/(314) 726-5649
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