[b-greek] Re: John 17:25

From: Harry W. Jones (hjbluebird@aol.com)
Date: Thu May 31 2001 - 19:35:01 EDT

> I hate to disagree with such sharp guys as MH, HH, and HWJ, to say
> nothing of HAWM, but I must side with Bengel and Ebrard on this one.
> [Holmyard]
> In BAGD, under KAI, at I.6, there is mention of KAI to introduce
> contrasts
> where there are two KAI's, yielding "although" . . ."yet." That is what
> the
> context in John 17:25 suggests.
> [Haggett]
> I don't think this does fit, because I don't see this contrast as being
> between the two KAIs but between the first KAI and the EGW DE.
> I suppose you could translate:
> "Righteous Father, although the world did not know you, (yet) I knew you
> ..."
> But to my mind this doesn't quite convey the TONE of what Jesus is saying
> here. That idea would more likely be expressed with a MEN ... DE
> construction.
> [Ghilardi]
> John doesn't like MEN...DE contrastive. He uses it far less than any
> other major NT writer. In fact, it never appears in his letters or
> Revelation and only 4 times in his gospel -- 10:41; 16:22; 19:32f;
> 20:30f. Instead, he employs the Semitic construction KAI...KAI in 6:36;
> 15:24 and 17:25. This structure may also be found in Ac 23:3; Lk 5:36 and
> Mk 9:22. I got these references from the article in BAGD mentioned by HH.
> In light of the above, we cannot say with MH that <<That idea would more
> likely be expressed with a MEN ... DE
> construction>> but rather that John is just as likely to use either
> construction.
> I agree that there is a contrast between the first KAI and the EGW DE,
> but this contrast is subordinate and parenthetical to the contrast
> between the two KAI's.
> So I would render the verse like this:
> "Righteous Father, THE WORLD does not know you, (though I know you), and
> yet THESE do know that you sent me."
> The parallel with v. 11 would suggest this take on v. 25:
> I would render v. 11 as:
> "I am no longer in the world, and yet THEY are in the world."
> The only major structural difference between the two vss. is the
> intervening DE clause in v. 25. John shows us the parenthetical nature of
> this clause by using a postpositive conjunction that is weaker than KAI.
> Grammatically, the DE clause is unecessary. The verse makes good sense
> without it, as does v. 11. But logically, the DE clause is needed because
> Jesus' knowledge of the Father is the link between the disciples'
> knowledge of Jesus and his mission and their knowledge of the Father. (I
> say this knowing that logic has had a bad rap on this list lately.)
> In other words:
> Because Jesus knows the Father and because the disciples know Jesus the
> disciples know the Father (as the world does not know Him) through the
> mission of Jesus.
> I believe that the above interpretation is entirely in keeping with the
> TONE of this prayer. cf vss. 11, 14, 16, 18, 23.


The KAI pair is always used in either an additive or paralleling sense
when they are ment to pair up. The KAI pair is just not used for
contrast. That's why I have to disagree with what BAGD says on page
393 under I.6 about KAI pairs contrasting with "although...yet".
If you look at the examples given, Jo. 15:24 and Acts 23:3,
according to the context the KAI pairs are being used in an additive
sense even though there is contrast in Acts 23:3.

For showing contrast the following pairs would be used:

OUDE...OUDE- neither...nor.
MEN...DE- on the one hand...on the other.
OUTE...OUTE- neither...nor.
MHTE...MHTE- neither...nor.

In Acts 23:3 if Luke had ment to show contrast then he would
have used MEN...DE.

There is an interesting article on KAI in, "Linguistics and New
Testament Interpretation" by David Alan Black entitled,
"The Function of KAI in the Greek New Testament...." by Kermit Titrud.
For all those interested in the deeper mysteries of KAI I highly
recommend it. There is also a misunderstanding about DE that this
article points out. Also Randall Buth has an interesting article in
it too.

Harry W. Jones

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