[b-greek] RE: Cindy Westfall

From: Mark Beatty (marksresearch@hawaii.rr.com)
Date: Fri Jun 22 2001 - 02:19:36 EDT


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<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=139334500-22062001>Dear
Cindy, </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=139334500-22062001></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=139334500-22062001>Thank
you for your comments. I hope the following addresses your
concerns.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=139334500-22062001></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=139334500-22062001>First,
my comments on word order in my post attempted to be in non technical language.
My terms, however, come out of a very theoretical background. "Uneconomic" means
something like, "violating immediate feature checking by forcing formation of
chains rather then base generating the word or phrase in an environment allowing
immediate feature checking." I believe this is in line with the main stream
syntax theories of linguistics from people like Noam Chomsky. As I mentioned in
my last contribution, we can be confident that such a definition of "uneconomic"
is correct if it actually does work in all the 6,808 living languages--as well
as many dead ones. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=139334500-22062001></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=139334500-22062001>In
light of this, my theory, if correct, should work not only in all languages in
the world but in all forms of Greek, Classical, Biblical, Modern, and all the
dialects of them. As I understand Greek, this aspect of syntax has not changed
in the last 2,500 or so years. That five of the occurrences are quotes from the
LXX is not relevant to the mechanics of syntax. If the word order has been
changed AND there was some clear discourse purpose then that could support my
theories indirrectly. The reason for any change might simply be because the LXX
translation was not that good, or the point the author of Hebrews was making is
different than the point the author of the particular LXX book was making. If it
was the same, then perhaps both had some reason for using an uneconomic word
order. I have not looked up the OT reference for theoretical reasons. The reason
I have not examined it is that my theory states that the reason behind
uneconomic word order is semantic (which I take to subsume discourse). To answer
why the LXX writers used a certain uneconomic form would involve analyzing in
depth a large portion of scripture. To merely identify it as uneconomic is
according to mechanical rules of syntax and,&nbsp;according&nbsp;to my
theoretical package, a simple task.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=139334500-22062001></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=139334500-22062001><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>As the
the four occurrences of QEOS in the S ... V pattern, I include the following
footnotes in my dissertation:&nbsp; </FONT><FONT face=Arial>
<P class=MsoFootnoteText><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0000ff><SPAN
class=139334500-22062001>FOOTNOTE: </SPAN>This list was found using
Gramcord.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>The context was set to 5,
and thus any nominative nouns more than four words away from the verb would not
have come up on this search.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>Some
occurrences were possibly missed because of this.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>This was considered acceptable for this
study, because if the subject is too far from the verb then other variables are
at play.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>These variables could
hinder comparing verb-subject and subject-verb patterns.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>In addition, questions were not
considered.</FONT></FONT></P><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0000ff>
<P class=MsoFootnoteText><SPAN class=139334500-22062001>FOOTNOTE: </SPAN>When
searching Gramcord certain verbs can be omitted.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>In this search <SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Symbol">eimi </SPAN>and <SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Symbol">ginomai </SPAN>were excluded.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoFootnoteText><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=139334500-22062001>For me Hebrews 1:1 counts as a verb more than 5 words
away from the noun. O QEOS is next to a participle which is not relevant to my
claims. The relevant verb is the indicative ELALHSEN in 1:2.&nbsp;
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoFootnoteText><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=139334500-22062001>In my dissertation I consider other examples that give
empirical support to my theories. I hope the answers provided here adequately
address the concerns expressed. When I presented my dissertation to my committee
they used words like "shocked" and "impressed" by this finding. The reason I
consider the list of examples as significant is that this observation is a
result of my theoretical lens. My theoretical perspective that is wholly
independent from even Biblical Greek resulted in finding this pattern in the
book of Hebrews. I found a similar pattern with the word KURIOS. Below are
several relevant paragraphs discussing these findings. </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoFootnoteText><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"><FONT
color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>In Hebrews there are 43</FONT><A
href="outbind://7/#_ftn1" name=_ftnref1 style="mso-footnote-id: ftn1"
title=""><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=MsoFootnoteReference><SPAN
style="mso-special-character: footnote">[1]</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></A><FONT
color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2> occurrences of the verb-subject pattern
relevant to this study. The 12 copulative verbs</FONT><A
href="outbind://7/#_ftn2" name=_ftnref2 style="mso-footnote-id: ftn2"
title=""><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=MsoFootnoteReference><SPAN
style="mso-special-character: footnote">[2]</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></A><FONT
color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2> were not considered here because both arguments
of such verbs have the same case. Infinitives and participles were also not
considered here because they do not assign nominative case to their external
arguments (that is their subjects). These 43 occurrences are listed in (<SPAN
style="mso-field-code: 'REF _Ref507245952 \\r \\h'">260</SPAN>).
</FONT></SPAN></P>
<DIV style="mso-element: footnote-list"><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><FONT
face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">Of
the 43 uneconomic subject structures, 10 have </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Greek Parse'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">qeov"
</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">&#8216;God&#8217;
as the subject, 9 have </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Greek Parse'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">kuvrio"
</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">&#8216;Lord,&#8217;
3 have </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Greek Parse'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">iJerei'"
</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"><SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN>&#8216;priest,&#8217; and 2 have </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Greek Parse'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">AbraaVm</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">
&#8216;Abraham.&#8217; The other 13 subjects, occurring only once are (in order from above):
angels, the Spirit, our fathers, the word of the message, a Sabbath rest, Jesus,
Melchizedek, the law, high priest, Moses, one (covenant), Christ, his enemies,
sacrifice, soul, ancestors, descendants, Isaac, and women. Six of these
occurrences follow the verb </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Greek Parse'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">levgw</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">
&#8216;to speak.&#8217; </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>
<DIV id=ftn2 style="mso-element: footnote">
<P class=MsoFootnoteText><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"><FONT
color=#0000ff><FONT face=Arial size=2>There are 31<SPAN
class=139334500-22062001> </SPAN>occurrences of subject-verb patterns. As above,
copulative verbs, questions, infinitives and participles were omitted. These
subject-verb patterns are listed in (<SPAN
style="mso-field-code: 'REF _Ref507251706 \\r \\h'">261</SPAN>).
</FONT></FONT></P></SPAN>
<P class=MsoFootnoteText><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">Of
these 31, none have </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Greek Parse'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">qeov"
</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">&#8216;God&#8217;
as the subject, none have </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Greek Parse'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">kuvrio"
</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">&#8216;Lord,&#8217;
1 has </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Greek Parse'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">iJerei'"
</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"><SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN>&#8216;priest,&#8217; and 2 have </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Greek Parse'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">AbraaVm</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">
&#8216;Abraham.&#8217; The only multiple occurrence subject is </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Greek Parse'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">Mwu&gt;sh'"
</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">&#8216;Moses&#8217;
that occurs 4 times. The other 24 subjects in the economic word order, in the
verse order as in (<SPAN
style="mso-field-code: 'REF _Ref507251706 \\r \\h'">261</SPAN>), are: your
years, every violation and disobedience, the children, every house, dead bodies,
Joshua, Christ, mortal men, Levi, the people, the law, the day, a tent, gifts
and sacrifices, the high priest, every priest, Abel, the Egyptians, the walls of
Jericho, Ra&#8217;hab, an animal, his voice, mutual love, the bodies.
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></P></DIV></DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=139334500-22062001>Given
the reasonable limits I put on my data, I think I covered all relevant passages
of this particular syntactic structure in the Book of Hebrews. In my
dissertation I did support my theories with&nbsp;a variety of other syntactic
structures. Further support for my theories was also mentioned in my last post
to include the&nbsp;variable positions of prepositions and echo
questions&nbsp;in both English and Greek. My present research is applying my
theoretical package to Vietnamese. I am also preparing a paper for ETS in
November, applying these theories to&nbsp;Hebrews 4:12-13. My theories, however,
are an integrated package. Seeming holes in one component (such as syntax for
example) are addressed in the other component (semantics for example).&nbsp;
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=139334500-22062001></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=139334500-22062001>Again
thank you for your interest and response. When my dissertation&nbsp;comes out I
hope you might carefully and critically&nbsp;consider it.&nbsp;I make very
far-reaching but specific claims that are falsifiable if wrong. I look forward
to feedback from research whether it supports or damages my theoretical
package.&nbsp;That is the process of advancing a
theory.&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=139334500-22062001></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=139334500-22062001>Sincerely, </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=139334500-22062001></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=139334500-22062001>Mark
Beatty</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
---<BR>
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