From: Carl W. Conrad (firstname.lastname@example.org)
Date: Sat Aug 04 2001 - 19:29:50 EDT
At 1:51 PM -0700 8/4/01, Richard Allan Stauch wrote:
>From: Carl W. Conrad [mailto:email@example.com]
>Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 11:05 AM
>>At 11:30 AM -0400 8/4/01, Jonathan Robie wrote:
>>>Luke 1:15 ETI EK KOILIAS MHTROS AUTOU
>>>Does this mean "from birth", or "while still in the womb"?
>>This is awkward, but the ETI does seem to mean that EK KOILIAS MHTROS AUTOU
>>is to be understood as a point of temporal reference. Louw & Nida offer:
>>67.33 KATA; EPI; EN; EK; KAQWS:: markers of a point of time which is
>>simultaneous to or overlaps with another point of time - 'when, at the time
>>So I think the sense of ETI EK KOILIAS MHTROS AUTOU must be "already from
>>the time before his birth." EK with a genitive is used even in older Greek
>>with an indicator of age to indicate "ever since ..."--e.g. EK PAIDOS, EK
>>MEIRAKIOU; I think this is comparable to Latin usage with A/AB: A PUERO
>>HAEC FACIO = "I've been doing this since I was a boy."
>I looked up EK, and discovered that it can be translated "with" after "verbs
>of filling." could it be that some sense of "still with his mother's womb"
>could be following "and of [the] Holy Spirit he will be filled?" Probably
>not, I guess, since EK must relate to KOILIAS MHTROS AUTOU (all genitives),
>not PLHSQHSETAI. Still, it is a subsidiary clause, isn't it? Maybe I'm
>pushing my luck again, but I think Luke may have had some notion of
>"with/within" in mind at this point. Is that not possible?
Yes, Richard, there is that usage of EK--but it is an idiomatic way of
expressing the old "partitive notion" of one of the cases long since that
historically came to use the genitive ending, and it would only be used, as
you have noted, with a VERB OF FILLING. PLHSQHSETAI could take it, but the
governing phrase here is ETI EK THS KOILIAS MHTROS AUTOU. The "partitive"
genitive to be construed with PLHSQHSETAI in this verse is rather hAGIOU
PNEUMATOS (here without the EK, as is actually more normal in Greek usage;
I've often thought that the EK + "partitive" genitive might be a Latinism
in Koine Greek.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
Most months: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
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