[compost_tea] Re: added more food to long bew time lost booming population of flag

From: Tim Wilson <thegoodjob_at_hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 23:53:14 -0000

Hi Evan; Replies below in UPPER CASE

--- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "Evan Folds" <evan_at_...> wrote:
>
> I greatly respect your comments, Tim, thanks. I'm interested in this
> comment: "My experience is based on,1/ evaluating that a compost tea is
> finished by observing that there are more than 1000 mobile bacteria/archa=
ea
> per 20X field of view and 5 or more protozoa (usually flagellates) per 20=
X
> field of view (additionally fungal hyphae observed but not salient in thi=
s
> case) 2/ adding fish hydrolysate at 0.4% 3/ then re-evaluting to see an
> approximate 40% loss of bacterial/archaeal and flagellate activity."
>
>
>
> Where does this baseline come from, if you don't mind me asking? Why more
> than 1000 bacteria and 5 protozoa based on the respective view? I'm in n=
o
> way saying it is not relevant, simply curious how you came to these
> conclusions if it is other than by observation of what works for you?

THIS IS BASED ON MY EXPERIENCE WITH USING COMPOST TEA ON OUR FARM OVER AN A=
PPROXIMATE TEN YEAR PERIOD. SOMETIMES NUMBERS ARE MUCH HIGHER, LIKE 20,000 =
BACTERIA PER FIELD (GET MY DVD). GENERALLY I DON'T CONSIDER IT USEFUL FOR N=
UTRIENT CYCLING (MICROBIAL NUTRIENT LOOP) WITH LESS THAN 1000 AND AROUND 5 =
FLAGELLATES AND/OR NAKED AMOEBAE. CILIATES OF COURSE FILL THIS PREDATION RO=
LE AS WELL BUT PREDOMINENTLY FLAGELLATES AND NAKED AMOEBAE IS TYPICALLY A S=
IGN OF HIGHER OXYGEN [FOISSNER]

>
>
>
> Can you also define further what you are describing in regards to the
> nutrient loop versus specific microbes?

I'M SIMPLY DELINEATING THE PREDATION OF BACTERIA/ARCHAEA BY PROTOZOA AND NE=
MATODES AND RESULTING IONIC FORM NUTRIENTS, FROM NUTRIENT PRODUCTION RESULT=
ANT FROM CERTAIN FREE LIVING AND PLANT SYMBIOTIC NUTRIENT FIXERS AND MINERA=
LIZERS (E.G. VIA ENZYME/ACID ACTIVITY)
[MICHAEL BONKOWSKI, MARIANNE CLAREHOLM, BRYAN GRIFFITHS, VIGDIS TORSVIK FOR=
 CITATIONS]

 I couldn't agree more of the
> relevance of the nutrient loop irregardless of the microbe involved in
> regards to its worth. But anytime we get into a microbiological discussio=
n
> there is a grey area. For instance, while all the poo may be beneficial,
> some may be more beneficial than others, such as in the form of N for the
> plant being grown, or any other example one could come up with.

THAT IS A VERY GOOD REASON FOR HIGH DIVERSITY, GIVING THE OPPORTUNITY FOR T=
HE PLANT TO BE THE CONDUCTOR IN SELECTING THE MICROBES SHE WISHES TO WORK W=
ITH.

 For
> instance, on a macro scale cow manure is FAR more beneficial than horse
> manure. If you compost a ton of cow manure you get a ton of compost. If y=
ou
> do the same with horse manure you lose half the volume. This is because t=
he
> cow has four stomachs and results in a greater digestive ability, one rea=
son
> it is used in the BioDynamic method.
>
IT IS INTERESTING THAT MY EXPERIENCE WITH VERMICOMPOST AND HORSE MANURE COM=
PARED TO COW MANURE IS THE EXACT OPPOSITE. I FOUND THE DIGESTED PRODUCT I G=
OT FROM USING HORSE MANURE WITH MY WORMS TO BE MUCH MORE MICROBIALLY DIVERS=
E AND MORE FUNGALLY DENSE THAN IN A YEAR WHEN WE USED AGED COW MANURE. THE =
VERMICOMPOST WAS APPARENTLY MORE EFFECTIVE USED IN OUR GARDENS AS WELL. AS =
WITH ALL THINGS ONE CANNOT ALWAYS DRAW CLEAR CONCLUSIONS FROM OBSERVATIONS


>
>
> It seems to me the future is in establishing baselines for biological hea=
lth
> in soil, then connecting existing biological deficiencies with what food
> sources grow those microbes. All of this would be connected with plant
> performance. I would argue that any culture created in a lab lacks abilit=
y
> and strength relative to compost or farm raised microbiota.

NO ARGUMENT FROM ME THERE. ALL MY SAMPLES CAME FROM MY 100 ACRE FARM. I'M N=
OW SHRUNK DOWN TO 1.5 ACRES SINCE JUNE BUT AM STILL SURROUNDED BY FARMS.

Granted, you can
> accomplish more consistent and higher concentrations of microbes grown in
> petri dishes, but it's the equivalent of spoiling your children. If you
> provide everything for them they will not necessarily be accomplished
> adults. They lack "life experience". For instance, one of the hallmarks o=
f
> the BioDynamic method is that the compost heaps are not turned. The
> organisms are forced to operate aerobically and also via fermentation,
> giving them more life experience. You want them to struggle a bit, more
> strength and arguably greater diversity is accomplished in this manner. W=
e
> are working on ways to quantify this, but is simply based on our field
> trials and subjective experience. Further, much of the material sold as
> "compost" is simply mulch that has been oxidized by steaming and turning
> every hour. Gives it a bad name.
>
I HAVE ALWAYS SAID THAT A FEW ANAEROBES IN THE GANG IS A GOOD THING AND HAV=
E PREACHED THAT IT IS BETTER TO HAVE PROTOZOA IN THE MICROBIAL CONSORTIA WH=
ICH COMES FROM THE (VERMI)COMPOST AND GREW UP EATING THE BACTERIA/ARCHAEA R=
ATHER THAN CREATING A PROTOZOA SOUP FROM HAY OR... AND ADDING THAT TO A CON=
COCTION


>
>
> This also touches on a point that I think is underexperimented on in the
> compost tea world. No doubt, one of the major benefits is the fact that t=
he
> solution is alive. But as we all know, it is a perfect plant food as well=
,
> as Nature intended. As I have mentioned, we encourage retail stores and
> nurseries to brew perpetually with our Vortex Brewers. Our approach is no=
t
> necessarily to create a perfectly replicable tea, but to ensure that stor=
es
> can hand their customers a living solution (something they cannot buy fro=
m a
> shelf) and reduce the maintenance of the unit in the store. We're not goi=
ng
> to ask you to bottle it, buy a refrigerator, organize a pick up day, and
> hope people show up. One of the things that I'm sure is well covered in t=
his
> listserve is the predominance of protozoa and ciliates as the brew mature=
s.
> This remains true even with the addition of more food, biology, and catal=
yst
> going forward. I don't find many people that claim this is a negative, bu=
t
> most are focused on bacteria and fungi. Humus, or plant food, is the guts=
 of
> microbes created by the shredders. In one way of looking at it, the more
> higher organisms you have (shredders) the more plant food is obtained.

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT THE MICROBIAL NUTRIENT LOOP IS BUT [OUTSIDE OF THE HUM=
US COMMENT WHICH MAY BE MISPLACED; THERE ARE SEVERAL SCHOOLS OF THOUGHT], U=
NLESS I MISUNDERSTAND YOU, I DON'T BELIEVE IT HAS TO DO WITH "is the guts o=
f
> microbes created by the shredders." BUT IS THE EXCRETIONS OF THE PREDATOR=
S WHICH CONTAIN THE PLANT FOOD ('N' ETC) AS YOU CALL IT. AS I MENTIONED EAR=
LIER IT HAS BEEN DETERMINED BY THOSE WITH BETTER EQUIPMENT THAN MINE THAT P=
ROTOZOA USE ONLY 30 TO 40% OF THE ENERGY INTAKEN WHEN EATING BACTERIA/ARCHA=
EA AND EXPELL 60 TO 70% PURE IONIC FORM NUTRIENT (PREDOMINENTLY 'N')


This
> is extremely important for short cycle plants and people growing indoors =
or
> in containers who are not trying to establish a soil food web in their so=
il
> or soilless mix. The living organisms are simply gravy. It would be
> interesting to compare compost tea on cloned plants that were fed over th=
e
> lifetime of a perpetual brew. Some plants would receive 12-24hr old tea,
> others would receive the 24-26 hour tea, etc. with defined parameters for
> adding more inputs. We have outlined this experiment and intend on
> conducting it in the near future. my hypothesis would be that the more
> mature tea would produce the greatest results in growing plants simply fr=
om
> the fact that there was more plant food available.

HMMM. NOW I'M GOING TO ASK FOR YOUR FOUNDATIONAL INFORMATION. IT SOUNDS AS =
IF YOUR SAYING THAT BECAUSE A TEA HAS BEEN BREWING PERPETUALLY AND PREDATIO=
N TAKING PLACE THAT THERE WOULD BE A WHOLE LOT OF IONIC FORM NUTRIENT FLOAT=
ING AROUND IN THERE. IF THIS IS WHAT YOU MEAN, THIS COULD BE EVALUATED WITH=
 A SIMPLE LAB TEST TO QUANTIFY 'NPK'. IF WHAT I THINK YOU ARE SAYING WERE T=
RUE, AT LEAST ONE OF THESE MACRONUTRIENTS SHOULD REGISTER QUITE HIGH....IN =
COMPARISON TO TYPICAL ORGANIC TESTING.

>
>
>
> I flesh this out to exhibit the fact that compost tea can be created for
> many different reasons from many different angles. I truly appreciate the
> insight on this list in regards to working towards a more standard baseli=
ne
> to garner significance out of our efforts. I'm one to say that we may nev=
er
> get there, but it sure is fun trying. J
>

BTW, I HAVE GREAT RESPECT FOR BYODYNAMIC FARMING EVEN IF I DON'T GRASP SOME=
 OF THE EXPLANATIONS.

>
>
> Be a farmer, start a garden.
>
>
>
> Evan Folds
>
> Progress Earth
>
> 6005 Oleander Dr
>
> Wilmington, NC 28403
>
> 910-777-5372 ext # 1
>
> <http://www.ProgressEarth.com> www.ProgressEarth.com
>
>
>
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Received on Wed Apr 20 2011 - 20:00:01 EDT

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