Re: [compost_tea] Re: When to add amendments to the soil

From: marci.hess tds.net <marci.hess_at_tds.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 11:17:08 -0500

Back to Erica's e-mail --- you mentioned adding 50# of soymeal, now feather
meal. 50# to how much area? What made you change from soymeal to feather
meal?

On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 11:56 PM, Stephen Steyn <ssteyn_at_wcaccess.co.za>wrot=
e:

> **
>
>
> Tim;****
>
> You’re venturing into areas beyond my knowledge so I don’t really wan=
t to
> comment. ****
>
> “My take is that I believe nutrient uptake and therefore pH is a factor=
 of
> the ratios of bacteria/archaea to fungi as well as the acids (citric)
> excreted by roots.” Your comment ****
>
> The bacterial:fungi ratios may also be a factor of the pH I s’pose.
> Unfortunately herbicides, pesticides and fungicides have caused havoc wit=
h
> the soil biology, and added to that, excess N and soil tillage have
> destroyed humus and soil condition. I look to the day when the ‘cides h=
ave
> on their label their mode of action as well as some indication of their
> effect on biology.****
>
> SS
>
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com [mailto:compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com] =
*On
> Behalf Of *Tim Wilson
> *Sent:* 19 June 2011 19:14
> *To:* compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
> *Subject:* [compost_tea] Re: When to add amendments to the soil****
>
> ** **
>
> ****
>
> Hi Stephen;
>
> That is basically my take on my limited exposure to Albrecht's theories,
> that it is more the minerals, especially calcium that are of importance
> rather than the adjusting of soil pH. I believe I read that he said it is
> more a factor of biological activity that nutrients are taken up (which i=
s
> why plants grow in acidic soil).
>
> The article about pH states for one:
> "I would prefer to lower the
> pH levels over a period of
> a couple years so I could
> retest and monitor the
> progress. These levels
> are based on a 7-inch soil
> layer so changing the pH
> level deeper would require
> a proportional increase.
> For example,
> lowering a loam from a
> pH of 8 to 6.5 on a 10-
> inch layer would take
> about 2150#. Stratification
> of the sulfur could
> have much higher consequences
> than lime, so be
> sure to incorporate thoroughly
> to the target
> depth."
>
> Is this what Albrecht was about? You probably know better than I.
>
> My take is that I believe nutrient uptake and therefore pH is a factor of
> the ratios of bacteria/archaea to fungi as well as the acids (citric)
> excreted by roots.
>
> I guess if a growing are needed to be made more acidic, I'd sooner try to
> encourage fungal growth (mushrooms?).
>
> One thing in the article that I agree with is if you have a high rate of
> organic matter then pH is much less of (or not) a factor.
>
> Tim
>
> --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Steyn" <ssteyn_at_...> wrote:
> >
> > Tim:
> >
> > The article encapsulates his theory very well I think.
> >
> > You must bear in mind that Albrecht did his work in the 1930's and was =
a
> > very controversial figure at the time - going against the conventional
> > wisdom with his ideas on calcium and cation balance. Many of today's
> soils
> > scientists were not given the opportunity to understand the Albrecht wo=
rk
> > during their studies. Albrecht was an outcast amongst his peers and
> > eventually was forced out of the University of Missouri. Today there ar=
e
> > three systems of soil "balancing" in use in the USA (for example), each
> > coinciding with different regions of soil humus percentage. The beauty =
of
> > the Albrecht system is that it is universally applicable.
> >
> > Also, in practical terms, there is little difference between the
> > recommendations made when using the Albrecht system and the other local
> > systems. So you may wonder what the fuss is about. They give the same
> > answer. The problem came when Albrecht proved that he could grow good
> crops
> > even in acid soils - as long as Ca was adequate. He had thrown down the
> > gauntlet and academia took revenge in their own fashion. By deriding hi=
m
> and
> > effectively excluding him from their ranks. If it were not for people
> like
> > Charles Walters of Acres USA, he would still be unknown.
> >
> > About glaciers. No such thing in darkest Africa. Our rocks were scoured
> by
> > acids and biology as well as the heat of the sun. Your story about the
> > marauding buffalo herds is probably correct. Nutrients were returned to
> the
> > soils when they died. Their hooves churned and loosened the soils and
> > incorporated the seeds in the topsoil.
> >
> > SS
> >
> >
> >
> > From: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com [mailto:compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com]
> On
> > Behalf Of Tim Wilson
> > Sent: 18 June 2011 19:46
> > To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [compost_tea] Re: When to add amendments to the soil
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From the lips of Albrecht;
> >
> >
> http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010143albpap/pH.balanced%20nutri=
tio
> > n/pH.bal.nut.htm
> >
> > Here is the article which (to me) does not really seem to follow that
> > philosophy (but its just an article)
> >
> > http://www.loganlabs.com/doc/SoilProbe201101.pdf
> >
> > In something else I read of Albrecht's that I really agree with is that
> > modern North American agriculture does not fully consider the importanc=
e
> of
> > grasses and legumes (semi-wild).
> >
> > I think that on our old farm we had the level of success we did because
> we
> > allowed the established turf to remain with her deep roots, rather that
> > tilling everything up every few years [admittedly partially due to
> > laziness], like the neighbors. Instead we just tried techniques to
> improve
> > the health of the turf by hacking on weeds and dropping seed of desired
> > species, harrowing and burning once in a while.
> >
> > Do these deep roots mine nutrients? What is the reason the prairie
> grasses
> > maintained for so many thousands of years? Certainly huge herds of
> ungulates
> > grazed many areas bare; as bare as taking a crop off. I wonder.
> >
> > Stephen; you likely have similar history where you are. Did you have
> > marauding glaciers to blame?
> >
> > Tim
> >
> > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com <mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.co=
m>
> ,
> > "Stephen Steyn" <ssteyn_at_> wrote:
> > >
> > > For what it's worth, and I promise I won't bore you all who've heard =
it
> > > before again, here is the Albrecht take on pH.
> > >
> > > You can largely disregard pH. Its only real use is to signal that
> > something
> > > is out of kilter. It's like temperature in humans. If someone has a
> > > temperature, it's not the temperature that's the problem (otherwise y=
ou
> > > would give them a glass of cold water to cure them), rather it's a
> signal
> > > that something is wrong. Often this is simply an infection that your
> body
> > is
> > > trying to ward off, other times it may signal some other type of stre=
ss
> > > event.
> > >
> > > Now in soils pH is a signal that you have too many H+ ions making up
> your
> > > Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC). H+ ions are swopped for nutrient
> cations
> > by
> > > the plant during its growth. This can be any of the cations, Ca, Mg,
> Na,
> > or
> > > K or even some of the trace element cations. In general though plants
> > > require a lot of calcium so usually it's this element that is lacking=
.
> > >
> > > Albrecht recognised that the major cations had to be in a certain rat=
io
> to
> > > one another for plants to grow optimally. That is his major
> contribution
> > to
> > > agriculture.
> > >
> > > Having too many H+ ions present means they're taking the place of
> nutrient
> > > cations. (Yes, H+ is a cation but not a nutrient cation). Adding lime
> > > (Calcitic or Dolomitic) is a way to correct this imbalance. A ton of
> lime
> > > will contribute about 5kg Ca to your soil solution when you apply it.
> It's
> > > not very soluble, usually taking about three years to solubilise. The
> rate
> > > is affected by the acidity of the soil, the fineness of the lime and
> the
> > > microbial activity in the soil, as well as how well it is incorporate=
d
> in
> > > the soil. Gypsum is another source of Calcium. More soluble, with 180=
kg
> of
> > > Sulphur too per ton of gypsum as a bonus, and with the ability to
> > > precipitate Na from your soils under the right conditions. The sulphu=
r
> in
> > > the gypsum is very acidifying and in effect counteracts the
> neutralising
> > > effect of the added Ca.
> > >
> > > Having a soil that is biologically active will tend to neutralise the
> pH,
> > > and can buffer it effectively against the acidifying effect of the
> plants
> > > growing in it. If the plant material is being removed by harvesting o=
r
> > > grazing, you are essentially removing nutrient elements from your soi=
l.
> If
> > > the plants are not being removed but are allowed to be decomposed in
> the
> > > soil, the nutrients will be held in the humus. This is an excellent w=
ay
> to
> > > store nutrients for a following crop.
> > >
> > > SS
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com <mailto:
> compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto:compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com <mailto:
> compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com> ]
> > On
> > > Behalf Of Tim Wilson
> > > Sent: 17 June 2011 20:00
> > > To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com <mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com=
>
>
> > > Subject: [compost_tea] Re: When to add amendments to the soil
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The only guts info I could find quickly was their newsletter with the
> > > articles about pH manipulation. Need to follow up before I can really
> say
> > > anything besides (??). In the farming community I lived in before I
> > watched
> > > the locals chasing pH year after year following recommendations from
> the
> > > lab. It seemed to no avail, as we got equal to better yields complete=
ly
> > > ignoring pH and all manor of 'chemical soil tests' but (???)
> > >
> > > Tim
> > >
> > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com <mailto:
> compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com> ,
> > > "steved3602002" <steved_at_> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Logan Labs is an offshoot of Brookside Labs
> > > > and both are based on the classic Albrecht
> > > > soil test which is geared to mineral balance
> > > > for soil structure and optimal microbial
> > > > habitat, taking care of plant fertility,
> > > > ultimately aiming for nutritionally balanced
> > > > feeds and foods.
> > > >
> > > > Albrecht was a soil microbiologist, you know.
> > > >
> > > > Steve Diver
> > > >
> > >
> >****
>
> ****
>
>
>



--
608-577-8283
http://westmeathlane.blogspot.com/


Received on Mon Jun 20 2011 - 16:10:43 EDT

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