Tim;
You're venturing into areas beyond my knowledge so I don't really want to
comment.
"My take is that I believe nutrient uptake and therefore pH is a factor of
the ratios of bacteria/archaea to fungi as well as the acids (citric)
excreted by roots." Your comment
The bacterial:fungi ratios may also be a factor of the pH I s'pose.
Unfortunately herbicides, pesticides and fungicides have caused havoc with
the soil biology, and added to that, excess N and soil tillage have
destroyed humus and soil condition. I look to the day when the 'cides have
on their label their mode of action as well as some indication of their
effect on biology.
SS
From: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com [mailto:compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Tim Wilson
Sent: 19 June 2011 19:14
To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
Subject: [compost_tea] Re: When to add amendments to the soil
Hi Stephen;
That is basically my take on my limited exposure to Albrecht's theories,
that it is more the minerals, especially calcium that are of importance
rather than the adjusting of soil pH. I believe I read that he said it is
more a factor of biological activity that nutrients are taken up (which is
why plants grow in acidic soil).
The article about pH states for one:
"I would prefer to lower the
pH levels over a period of
a couple years so I could
retest and monitor the
progress. These levels
are based on a 7-inch soil
layer so changing the pH
level deeper would require
a proportional increase.
For example,
lowering a loam from a
pH of 8 to 6.5 on a 10-
inch layer would take
about 2150#. Stratification
of the sulfur could
have much higher consequences
than lime, so be
sure to incorporate thoroughly
to the target
depth."
Is this what Albrecht was about? You probably know better than I.
My take is that I believe nutrient uptake and therefore pH is a factor of
the ratios of bacteria/archaea to fungi as well as the acids (citric)
excreted by roots.
I guess if a growing are needed to be made more acidic, I'd sooner try to
encourage fungal growth (mushrooms?).
One thing in the article that I agree with is if you have a high rate of
organic matter then pH is much less of (or not) a factor.
Tim
--- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com <mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com> ,
"Stephen Steyn" <ssteyn_at_...> wrote:
>
> Tim:
>
> The article encapsulates his theory very well I think.
>
> You must bear in mind that Albrecht did his work in the 1930's and was a
> very controversial figure at the time - going against the conventional
> wisdom with his ideas on calcium and cation balance. Many of today's soils
> scientists were not given the opportunity to understand the Albrecht work
> during their studies. Albrecht was an outcast amongst his peers and
> eventually was forced out of the University of Missouri. Today there are
> three systems of soil "balancing" in use in the USA (for example), each
> coinciding with different regions of soil humus percentage. The beauty of
> the Albrecht system is that it is universally applicable.
>
> Also, in practical terms, there is little difference between the
> recommendations made when using the Albrecht system and the other local
> systems. So you may wonder what the fuss is about. They give the same
> answer. The problem came when Albrecht proved that he could grow good
crops
> even in acid soils - as long as Ca was adequate. He had thrown down the
> gauntlet and academia took revenge in their own fashion. By deriding him
and
> effectively excluding him from their ranks. If it were not for people like
> Charles Walters of Acres USA, he would still be unknown.
>
> About glaciers. No such thing in darkest Africa. Our rocks were scoured by
> acids and biology as well as the heat of the sun. Your story about the
> marauding buffalo herds is probably correct. Nutrients were returned to
the
> soils when they died. Their hooves churned and loosened the soils and
> incorporated the seeds in the topsoil.
>
> SS
>
>
>
> From: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com <mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com <mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com> ]
On
> Behalf Of Tim Wilson
> Sent: 18 June 2011 19:46
> To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com <mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [compost_tea] Re: When to add amendments to the soil
>
>
>
>
>
> From the lips of Albrecht;
>
>
http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010143albpap/pH.balanced%20nutritio
> n/pH.bal.nut.htm
>
> Here is the article which (to me) does not really seem to follow that
> philosophy (but its just an article)
>
> http://www.loganlabs.com/doc/SoilProbe201101.pdf
>
> In something else I read of Albrecht's that I really agree with is that
> modern North American agriculture does not fully consider the importance
of
> grasses and legumes (semi-wild).
>
> I think that on our old farm we had the level of success we did because we
> allowed the established turf to remain with her deep roots, rather that
> tilling everything up every few years [admittedly partially due to
> laziness], like the neighbors. Instead we just tried techniques to improve
> the health of the turf by hacking on weeds and dropping seed of desired
> species, harrowing and burning once in a while.
>
> Do these deep roots mine nutrients? What is the reason the prairie grasses
> maintained for so many thousands of years? Certainly huge herds of
ungulates
> grazed many areas bare; as bare as taking a crop off. I wonder.
>
> Stephen; you likely have similar history where you are. Did you have
> marauding glaciers to blame?
>
> Tim
>
> --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com <mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com> ,
> "Stephen Steyn" <ssteyn_at_> wrote:
> >
> > For what it's worth, and I promise I won't bore you all who've heard it
> > before again, here is the Albrecht take on pH.
> >
> > You can largely disregard pH. Its only real use is to signal that
> something
> > is out of kilter. It's like temperature in humans. If someone has a
> > temperature, it's not the temperature that's the problem (otherwise you
> > would give them a glass of cold water to cure them), rather it's a
signal
> > that something is wrong. Often this is simply an infection that your
body
> is
> > trying to ward off, other times it may signal some other type of stress
> > event.
> >
> > Now in soils pH is a signal that you have too many H+ ions making up
your
> > Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC). H+ ions are swopped for nutrient cations
> by
> > the plant during its growth. This can be any of the cations, Ca, Mg, Na,
> or
> > K or even some of the trace element cations. In general though plants
> > require a lot of calcium so usually it's this element that is lacking.
> >
> > Albrecht recognised that the major cations had to be in a certain ratio
to
> > one another for plants to grow optimally. That is his major contribution
> to
> > agriculture.
> >
> > Having too many H+ ions present means they're taking the place of
nutrient
> > cations. (Yes, H+ is a cation but not a nutrient cation). Adding lime
> > (Calcitic or Dolomitic) is a way to correct this imbalance. A ton of
lime
> > will contribute about 5kg Ca to your soil solution when you apply it.
It's
> > not very soluble, usually taking about three years to solubilise. The
rate
> > is affected by the acidity of the soil, the fineness of the lime and the
> > microbial activity in the soil, as well as how well it is incorporated
in
> > the soil. Gypsum is another source of Calcium. More soluble, with 180kg
of
> > Sulphur too per ton of gypsum as a bonus, and with the ability to
> > precipitate Na from your soils under the right conditions. The sulphur
in
> > the gypsum is very acidifying and in effect counteracts the neutralising
> > effect of the added Ca.
> >
> > Having a soil that is biologically active will tend to neutralise the
pH,
> > and can buffer it effectively against the acidifying effect of the
plants
> > growing in it. If the plant material is being removed by harvesting or
> > grazing, you are essentially removing nutrient elements from your soil.
If
> > the plants are not being removed but are allowed to be decomposed in the
> > soil, the nutrients will be held in the humus. This is an excellent way
to
> > store nutrients for a following crop.
> >
> > SS
> >
> >
> >
> > From: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com <mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com <mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com> ]
> On
> > Behalf Of Tim Wilson
> > Sent: 17 June 2011 20:00
> > To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com <mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: [compost_tea] Re: When to add amendments to the soil
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The only guts info I could find quickly was their newsletter with the
> > articles about pH manipulation. Need to follow up before I can really
say
> > anything besides (??). In the farming community I lived in before I
> watched
> > the locals chasing pH year after year following recommendations from the
> > lab. It seemed to no avail, as we got equal to better yields completely
> > ignoring pH and all manor of 'chemical soil tests' but (???)
> >
> > Tim
> >
> > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
<mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com> ,
> > "steved3602002" <steved_at_> wrote:
> > >
> > > Logan Labs is an offshoot of Brookside Labs
> > > and both are based on the classic Albrecht
> > > soil test which is geared to mineral balance
> > > for soil structure and optimal microbial
> > > habitat, taking care of plant fertility,
> > > ultimately aiming for nutritionally balanced
> > > feeds and foods.
> > >
> > > Albrecht was a soil microbiologist, you know.
> > >
> > > Steve Diver
> > >
> >
>
Received on Mon Jun 20 2011 - 05:13:18 EDT