Evan:
You may be right, and by having a "perpetual brew" you may be solving a
problem for the seller who is able to give his customer a can of ACT without
the customer having to wait 24 hours. Would an extract done on the premises
immediately not be a better bet for all involved. It would only take a few
minutes?
SS
From: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com [mailto:compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of evanfolds
Sent: 23 June 2011 23:51
To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
Subject: [compost_tea] Re: can a brew continue by simply adding nutrients?
Sorry for the product plug, Tim, hard to get the point across otherwise.
We have tracked DO in the past with a perpetual brew, but nothing I can
regurgitate. I have tasked my guys to track that with a fresh brew starting
the beginning of next week along with what we are adding daily for reference
and will report back.
I will admit that the quality of the microbe, and possibly the diversity, is
compromised when brewing perpetually. Who's determining ACTUAL diversity
anyway wihtout DNA testing? However, that is of relative importance. Put it
this way, ANY living solution is better than none as long as it is not
aerobic. In other words, when people take a perpetual brew from a garden
store they cannot buy the equivalant from a shelf.
Also, I realize that this is a compost tea forum mostly interested in the
biological aspects of living solutions, and rightfully so. But the aspect of
compsot tea that gets perpetually glossed over is the fact that microbes
make perfect plant food. What I think is happening over time is that the
longer you brew the more plant food you have.
Tim, you reference that you think ciliates are nutrient cyclers, and I would
agree. I would argue that ALL microbes are nutrient cyclers in their own
right. The shredders spill the guts of bacteria and create humus, or plant
food. Arguably, the more shredding you have going on, the more plant food
you have. The people in the testimonial video may simply be reacting to the
perfect plant food beenfit, not the biological influence. I like to think
the living microbes have a direct influence, but how can one know for sure?
It all depends on the application. For instance, an indoor grower who is
planning on throwing his potting soil away in 3-4 months is not necessarily
trying to establish a soil food web in his container. His interests may be
more on the plant food emphasis, therefore perpetual brewing makes more
sense to him. We have many growers who keep perpetual brews going and use on
every watering.
In another context there may be a farmer who is interested in the long term
biological balance in his soil who may benefit more by batch brewing and
ensuring the sanctity of the microbes involved.
The point is, we don't know for sure.
The future is defining applications and the need for certain microbes in
those applications, then establishing food sources and brew times that
encourage those microbes needed most effectively. This research has not been
done, and is barely even discussed.
Without a baseline of what soil "should" be, we're pretty much shooting in
the dark. However, there are certain applications that warrant progress. I
saw the other day a reference from a Australian farmer who discovered that
there is actually a bacteria responsible for frost damage in plants. In
other words, its not the temperature, but an excretion on the leaf surface
by a certain microbe that makes the plants vulnerable and crstalizes the
moisture. What if we could determine a predator for this microbe and use a
food source and brew time that encouraged it? The mind races at the
potetnial applications, but this is the future.
There are also variables involved that throw a monkey wrench into these
ideas. For example, the strength of microbes. We discuss microbes as if they
are all the same, but this is not true. Keep in mind that you cannot see
biological strength under a microscope. In other words, a lab analysis can
only get you so far in regards to how the specific microbe influences
growing plants. I don't know of any labs connecting biological assays and
sourcews with plant growth...and this is the most important thing!
One way to think about this is biodynamics. In the biodynamic method compost
is not turned. In other words, the microbe is challenged to operate in an
aerobic/anaerobic capacity, as Dr. Ingham referenced in a post a couple of
weeks ago. The result is that the mcirobes are challenged more, they develop
more life experince, so to speak. If you coddle your children are they going
to end up as accomplsihed adults? You get the idea.
Anyway, food for thought. When we get some results I'll report back...peace
evan
www.VortexBrewer.com
--- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com <mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com> ,
"Tim Wilson" <thegoodjob_at_...> wrote:
>
> I was hoping you would speak up on this subject Evan. I'd be more
interested in the tracked dissolved oxygen than the testimonials (BTW I
don't know if anyone told you advertising is on Sundays only) I do believe
that a semi-perpetual brew is possible but do not know whether it is more
beneficial than starting a brew over. Some of the longterm brews I've
carried out have wound up with a predominence of ciliates and/or fungal
hyphae quite devoured by bacteria.
>
> If you have tracked the microbial development and/or DO2 I'd be interested
in hearing/seeing.
>
> I was asked recently to put on a seminar for a college growing program and
they did not have a brewer. I threw together a 5 gallon airlift brewer to
donate, using the 2 CFM Hailea. Because of time constraints we started the
brew at my place so it would be on about 36 hours for the seminar. I checked
the brew at 11 hours and it blew my mind. It was complete. Bacteria/archaea,
flagellates & mega fungal hyphae. The DO2 was 8.2 ppm. Next morning shut it
down, drove about 2 hours, then started the brew back up again. I did not
take the O2 meter but samples under the scope at 36 to 40 hours were
beginning to show chewed down hyphae and quite an abundance of ciliates and
less flagellates. Now does that mean the ACT is not as functional? I don't
know. But it was on its way to being overun by ciliates. We've been told by
some in the field, this is a bad sign. I believe ciliates cycle nutrients
but I think the lack of diversity is not great.
>
> On an upnote; What an incredible little brewer I stumbled on.
>
> *Evan; I'm working on the testing thing.
>
> Salutations,
> Tim
>
> --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com <mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com>
, "evanfolds" <evan_at_> wrote:
> >
> > We have been brewing perpetually for many years using a Vortex Brewer.
Here is a video of many happy customers using compost tea created in this
way:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fNWyTqUUN0
> >
> > it is important to refresh teh solution at least once per week. In other
words, if you are distributing 10 gallons a wekk using a 60 gallon unit the
inputs compound on themselves. We suggest adding a certian amoutn of input
for every 5 gallons of water added to the unit. It works great.
> >
> > This not only makes sense on a convenience level, but also on a "plant
food" level. We all know microbes make perfect plant food. When attaining a
shredder dominance after 48 hours it makes sense that this process creates
more plant food the longer the tea is brewed. After all, the guts of
bacteria make up humus, i.e. plant food.
> >
> > We are not suggesting that this provides a replicable biological
product, only that it is a living solution that cannot be purtchased from a
shelf. Depending on the application, the plant food aspect may be more
important than the biological aspect. Consider container gardening or indoor
gardening where the goal is not necessarily to establish an operating soil
food web.
> >
> > We have distributed compost tea from a Vortex Brewer to every gardening
situation imagineable over the last 5-6 years, sometimes with a brew that
has been spinning for up to 6 months without cleaning the unit, and never
have we had a negative response.
> >
> > I would not receommend using other compost tea units in this capacity,
not because it will not work, but becasue I have not personally tested it.
There is still MUCH work to do to determine the potentials of compost tea,
but perpetual brewing sure makes sense from our perspective.
> >
> > Evan
> > www.VortexBrewer.com
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
<mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com> , "RTS Friction - Carruthers" <home_at_>
wrote:
> > >
> > > It would seem you run the risk of outside contamination if you
continue to use your base stock, much the same as using your yeast again and
again in beer making. Look forward to other comments good question.
> > > If you trail through the archives you will see the discussions on
adding extra food/nutrient, many members believe it is not necessary. Thanks
to good advice I now rely on the release of nutrients in the
compost/vermicast to multiply the MO's, I do add a little barley malt if
using the tea for getting the compost heap going or doing a lawn drench.
> > > Ian C
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Paul M Moriarty To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
<mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 9:03 PM
> > >
> > > New guy here. I've searched through the archives and haven't found an
answer to my question. Hopefully, one of you can help me out.
> > >
> > > Is it possible to just keep a batch of tea going by, draining off 1/2
the tea and replacing with water & food as one would with a sourdough
starter, or is it necessary to replenish the castings as well? As an urban
farmer, I'm trying to get as much mileage out of my castings as possible.
> > >
> >
>
Received on Fri Jun 24 2011 - 09:07:09 EDT