[compost_tea] Re: can a brew continue by simply adding nutrients?

From: evanfolds <evan_at_progressearth.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 21:50:34 -0000

Sorry for the product plug, Tim, hard to get the point across otherwise.

We have tracked DO in the past with a perpetual brew, but nothing I can reg=
urgitate. I have tasked my guys to track that with a fresh brew starting th=
e beginning of next week along with what we are adding daily for reference =
and will report back.

I will admit that the quality of the microbe, and possibly the diversity, i=
s compromised when brewing perpetually. Who's determining ACTUAL diversity =
anyway wihtout DNA testing? However, that is of relative importance. Put it=
 this way, ANY living solution is better than none as long as it is not aer=
obic. In other words, when people take a perpetual brew from a garden store=
 they cannot buy the equivalant from a shelf.

Also, I realize that this is a compost tea forum mostly interested in the b=
iological aspects of living solutions, and rightfully so. But the aspect of=
 compsot tea that gets perpetually glossed over is the fact that microbes m=
ake perfect plant food. What I think is happening over time is that the lon=
ger you brew the more plant food you have.

Tim, you reference that you think ciliates are nutrient cyclers, and I woul=
d agree. I would argue that ALL microbes are nutrient cyclers in their own =
right. The shredders spill the guts of bacteria and create humus, or plant =
food. Arguably, the more shredding you have going on, the more plant food y=
ou have. The people in the testimonial video may simply be reacting to the =
perfect plant food beenfit, not the biological influence. I like to think t=
he living microbes have a direct influence, but how can one know for sure?

It all depends on the application. For instance, an indoor grower who is pl=
anning on throwing his potting soil away in 3-4 months is not necessarily t=
rying to establish a soil food web in his container. His interests may be m=
ore on the plant food emphasis, therefore perpetual brewing makes more sens=
e to him. We have many growers who keep perpetual brews going and use on ev=
ery watering.

In another context there may be a farmer who is interested in the long term=
 biological balance in his soil who may benefit more by batch brewing and e=
nsuring the sanctity of the microbes involved.

The point is, we don't know for sure.

The future is defining applications and the need for certain microbes in th=
ose applications, then establishing food sources and brew times that encour=
age those microbes needed most effectively. This research has not been done=
, and is barely even discussed.

Without a baseline of what soil "should" be, we're pretty much shooting in =
the dark. However, there are certain applications that warrant progress. I =
saw the other day a reference from a Australian farmer who discovered that =
there is actually a bacteria responsible for frost damage in plants. In oth=
er words, its not the temperature, but an excretion on the leaf surface by =
a certain microbe that makes the plants vulnerable and crstalizes the moist=
ure. What if we could determine a predator for this microbe and use a food =
source and brew time that encouraged it? The mind races at the potetnial ap=
plications, but this is the future.

There are also variables involved that throw a monkey wrench into these ide=
as. For example, the strength of microbes. We discuss microbes as if they a=
re all the same, but this is not true. Keep in mind that you cannot see bio=
logical strength under a microscope. In other words, a lab analysis can onl=
y get you so far in regards to how the specific microbe influences growing =
plants. I don't know of any labs connecting biological assays and sourcews =
with plant growth...and this is the most important thing!

One way to think about this is biodynamics. In the biodynamic method compos=
t is not turned. In other words, the microbe is challenged to operate in an=
 aerobic/anaerobic capacity, as Dr. Ingham referenced in a post a couple of=
 weeks ago. The result is that the mcirobes are challenged more, they devel=
op more life experince, so to speak. If you coddle your children are they g=
oing to end up as accomplsihed adults? You get the idea.

Anyway, food for thought. When we get some results I'll report back...peace

evan
www.VortexBrewer.com




--- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "Tim Wilson" <thegoodjob_at_...> wrote:
>
> I was hoping you would speak up on this subject Evan. I'd be more interes=
ted in the tracked dissolved oxygen than the testimonials (BTW I don't know=
 if anyone told you advertising is on Sundays only) I do believe that a sem=
i-perpetual brew is possible but do not know whether it is more beneficial =
than starting a brew over. Some of the longterm brews I've carried out have=
 wound up with a predominence of ciliates and/or fungal hyphae quite devour=
ed by bacteria.
>
> If you have tracked the microbial development and/or DO2 I'd be intereste=
d in hearing/seeing.
>
> I was asked recently to put on a seminar for a college growing program an=
d they did not have a brewer. I threw together a 5 gallon airlift brewer to=
 donate, using the 2 CFM Hailea. Because of time constraints we started the=
 brew at my place so it would be on about 36 hours for the seminar. I check=
ed the brew at 11 hours and it blew my mind. It was complete. Bacteria/arch=
aea, flagellates & mega fungal hyphae. The DO2 was 8.2 ppm. Next morning sh=
ut it down, drove about 2 hours, then started the brew back up again. I did=
 not take the O2 meter but samples under the scope at 36 to 40 hours were b=
eginning to show chewed down hyphae and quite an abundance of ciliates and =
less flagellates. Now does that mean the ACT is not as functional? I don't =
know. But it was on its way to being overun by ciliates. We've been told by=
 some in the field, this is a bad sign. I believe ciliates cycle nutrients =
but I think the lack of diversity is not great.
>
> On an upnote; What an incredible little brewer I stumbled on.
>
> *Evan; I'm working on the testing thing.
>
> Salutations,
> Tim
>
> --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "evanfolds" <evan_at_> wrote:
> >
> > We have been brewing perpetually for many years using a Vortex Brewer. =
Here is a video of many happy customers using compost tea created in this w=
ay: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fNWyTqUUN0
> >
> > it is important to refresh teh solution at least once per week. In othe=
r words, if you are distributing 10 gallons a wekk using a 60 gallon unit t=
he inputs compound on themselves. We suggest adding a certian amoutn of inp=
ut for every 5 gallons of water added to the unit. It works great.
> >
> > This not only makes sense on a convenience level, but also on a "plant =
food" level. We all know microbes make perfect plant food. When attaining a=
 shredder dominance after 48 hours it makes sense that this process creates=
 more plant food the longer the tea is brewed. After all, the guts of bacte=
ria make up humus, i.e. plant food.
> >
> > We are not suggesting that this provides a replicable biological produc=
t, only that it is a living solution that cannot be purtchased from a shelf=
. Depending on the application, the plant food aspect may be more important=
 than the biological aspect. Consider container gardening or indoor gardeni=
ng where the goal is not necessarily to establish an operating soil food we=
b.
> >
> > We have distributed compost tea from a Vortex Brewer to every gardening=
 situation imagineable over the last 5-6 years, sometimes with a brew that =
has been spinning for up to 6 months without cleaning the unit, and never h=
ave we had a negative response.
> >
> > I would not receommend using other compost tea units in this capacity, =
not because it will not work, but becasue I have not personally tested it. =
There is still MUCH work to do to determine the potentials of compost tea, =
but perpetual brewing sure makes sense from our perspective.
> >
> > Evan
> > www.VortexBrewer.com
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "RTS Friction - Carruthers" <home_at_>=
 wrote:
> > >
> > > It would seem you run the risk of outside contamination if you contin=
ue to use your base stock, much the same as using your yeast again and agai=
n in beer making. Look forward to other comments good question.
> > > If you trail through the archives you will see the discussions on add=
ing extra food/nutrient, many members believe it is not necessary. Thanks t=
o good advice I now rely on the release of nutrients in the compost/vermica=
st to multiply the MO's, I do add a little barley malt if using the tea for=
 getting the compost heap going or doing a lawn drench.
> > > Ian C
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Paul M Moriarty To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 9:03 PM
> > >
> > > New guy here. I've searched through the archives and haven't found =
an answer to my question. Hopefully, one of you can help me out.
> > >
> > > Is it possible to just keep a batch of tea going by, draining off 1=
/2 the tea and replacing with water & food as one would with a sourdough st=
arter, or is it necessary to replenish the castings as well? As an urban fa=
rmer, I'm trying to get as much mileage out of my castings as possible.
> > >
> >
>




Received on Fri Jun 24 2011 - 09:07:01 EDT

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