[compost_tea] Re: can a brew continue by simply adding nutrients?

From: Tim Wilson <thegoodjob_at_hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 19:03:39 -0000

Hi Evan;

Two things jumped at me from your post;

1/ Diversity; The type of diversity which is qualified/quantified by DNA te=
sting is the species (genera?) difference in bacteria, archaea and fungi ge=
nera. The type of diversity I am talking about is bacteria/archaea, flagell=
ates, naked amoebae, testate amoebae, ciliates, rotifers, fungal hyphae. Th=
ese are easily discerned microscopically; as simple as looking outdoors to =
see the types of animals and birds in your backyard. There are also differe=
nces which can be discerned inter species. If I see entirely different shap=
es and motility within bacterial/archaeal species I can assume they are of =
different genera but this is not hard and fast with this group. Likewise wi=
th fungal hyphae if they grow differently, produce different spores and thr=
ow down septate at different distances, have different membranes, etc. I ca=
n conclude they are of different genera. With flagellates, ciliates and amo=
ebae it is quite simple to discern different genera visually. And you don't=
 need to know their name to know they are different. That is the diversity =
I'm looking for in a compost tea, soil or compost sample. Have you seen my =
DVD?

2/ Shredders;
You mention shredders as providers of plant food and I believe humus creato=
rs if I'm not mistaken. I presume you are speaking of the predators like pr=
otozoa and nematodes. My understanding of how nutrients are cycled to plant=
s microbially is protozoa consume bacteria/archaea and utilize only 30 to 4=
0 percent of the energy derived for sustenance. What they excrete is the 60=
 to 70 percent in bioavailable (ionic form - soluble) nutrients which can b=
e directly uptaken by plants.

I believe (as far as I know today) that the creation of humus is somewhat s=
till in unknown territory but I had not heard the hypothesis of it being fo=
rmed from the guts of bacteria (microbes). There are two (that I know of) s=
chools of thought on what comprises humus as to whether the organic materia=
l is no longer recognizeable and it is a unique molecular structure (humic =
polymers or covalent bonded) OR where some aspect of the originating organi=
c matter is detectable and it forms a molecular aggregate structure (supram=
olecular aggregates or non-covalent bonded).

As we have discussed, it is my thought that if a compost tea would 'hold' n=
utrients in solution as a factor of predation having taken place, then it w=
ould seem a perpetual brew would make better sense. If these nutrients are =
in solution, it should be relatively easy to detect them through 'dependabl=
e' laboratory testing. I do believe the testing would need to be done witho=
ut any extraction processes but that is my uneducated hypothesis.

The specialty or talented bacteria which you mentioned may have someplace i=
n compost tea but presently I see them more as something which may be speci=
fically fermented or purchased ready to use, as is much the case with the P=
GPR products.

Salutations,
Tim


--- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "evanfolds" <evan_at_...> wrote:
>
> Sorry for the product plug, Tim, hard to get the point across otherwise.=
 
>
> We have tracked DO in the past with a perpetual brew, but nothing I can r=
egurgitate. I have tasked my guys to track that with a fresh brew starting =
the beginning of next week along with what we are adding daily for referenc=
e and will report back.
>
> I will admit that the quality of the microbe, and possibly the diversity,=
 is compromised when brewing perpetually. Who's determining ACTUAL diversit=
y anyway wihtout DNA testing? However, that is of relative importance. Put =
it this way, ANY living solution is better than none as long as it is not a=
erobic. In other words, when people take a perpetual brew from a garden sto=
re they cannot buy the equivalant from a shelf.
>
> Also, I realize that this is a compost tea forum mostly interested in the=
 biological aspects of living solutions, and rightfully so. But the aspect =
of compsot tea that gets perpetually glossed over is the fact that microbes=
 make perfect plant food. What I think is happening over time is that the l=
onger you brew the more plant food you have.
>
> Tim, you reference that you think ciliates are nutrient cyclers, and I wo=
uld agree. I would argue that ALL microbes are nutrient cyclers in their ow=
n right. The shredders spill the guts of bacteria and create humus, or plan=
t food. Arguably, the more shredding you have going on, the more plant food=
 you have. The people in the testimonial video may simply be reacting to th=
e perfect plant food beenfit, not the biological influence. I like to think=
 the living microbes have a direct influence, but how can one know for sure=
?
>
> It all depends on the application. For instance, an indoor grower who is =
planning on throwing his potting soil away in 3-4 months is not necessarily=
 trying to establish a soil food web in his container. His interests may be=
 more on the plant food emphasis, therefore perpetual brewing makes more se=
nse to him. We have many growers who keep perpetual brews going and use on =
every watering.
>
> In another context there may be a farmer who is interested in the long te=
rm biological balance in his soil who may benefit more by batch brewing and=
 ensuring the sanctity of the microbes involved.
>
> The point is, we don't know for sure.
>
> The future is defining applications and the need for certain microbes in =
those applications, then establishing food sources and brew times that enco=
urage those microbes needed most effectively. This research has not been do=
ne, and is barely even discussed.
>
> Without a baseline of what soil "should" be, we're pretty much shooting i=
n the dark. However, there are certain applications that warrant progress. =
I saw the other day a reference from a Australian farmer who discovered tha=
t there is actually a bacteria responsible for frost damage in plants. In o=
ther words, its not the temperature, but an excretion on the leaf surface b=
y a certain microbe that makes the plants vulnerable and crstalizes the moi=
sture. What if we could determine a predator for this microbe and use a foo=
d source and brew time that encouraged it? The mind races at the potetnial =
applications, but this is the future.
>
> There are also variables involved that throw a monkey wrench into these i=
deas. For example, the strength of microbes. We discuss microbes as if they=
 are all the same, but this is not true. Keep in mind that you cannot see b=
iological strength under a microscope. In other words, a lab analysis can o=
nly get you so far in regards to how the specific microbe influences growin=
g plants. I don't know of any labs connecting biological assays and sourcew=
s with plant growth...and this is the most important thing!
>
> One way to think about this is biodynamics. In the biodynamic method comp=
ost is not turned. In other words, the microbe is challenged to operate in =
an aerobic/anaerobic capacity, as Dr. Ingham referenced in a post a couple =
of weeks ago. The result is that the mcirobes are challenged more, they dev=
elop more life experince, so to speak. If you coddle your children are they=
 going to end up as accomplsihed adults? You get the idea.
>
> Anyway, food for thought. When we get some results I'll report back...pea=
ce
>
> evan
> www.VortexBrewer.com
>
>
>
>
> --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "Tim Wilson" <thegoodjob_at_> wrote:
> >
> > I was hoping you would speak up on this subject Evan. I'd be more inter=
ested in the tracked dissolved oxygen than the testimonials (BTW I don't kn=
ow if anyone told you advertising is on Sundays only) I do believe that a s=
emi-perpetual brew is possible but do not know whether it is more beneficia=
l than starting a brew over. Some of the longterm brews I've carried out ha=
ve wound up with a predominence of ciliates and/or fungal hyphae quite devo=
ured by bacteria.
> >
> > If you have tracked the microbial development and/or DO2 I'd be interes=
ted in hearing/seeing.
> >
> > I was asked recently to put on a seminar for a college growing program =
and they did not have a brewer. I threw together a 5 gallon airlift brewer =
to donate, using the 2 CFM Hailea. Because of time constraints we started t=
he brew at my place so it would be on about 36 hours for the seminar. I che=
cked the brew at 11 hours and it blew my mind. It was complete. Bacteria/ar=
chaea, flagellates & mega fungal hyphae. The DO2 was 8.2 ppm. Next morning =
shut it down, drove about 2 hours, then started the brew back up again. I d=
id not take the O2 meter but samples under the scope at 36 to 40 hours were=
 beginning to show chewed down hyphae and quite an abundance of ciliates an=
d less flagellates. Now does that mean the ACT is not as functional? I don'=
t know. But it was on its way to being overun by ciliates. We've been told =
by some in the field, this is a bad sign. I believe ciliates cycle nutrient=
s but I think the lack of diversity is not great.
> >
> > On an upnote; What an incredible little brewer I stumbled on.
> >
> > *Evan; I'm working on the testing thing.
> >
> > Salutations,
> > Tim
> >
> > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "evanfolds" <evan_at_> wrote:
> > >
> > > We have been brewing perpetually for many years using a Vortex Brewer=
. Here is a video of many happy customers using compost tea created in this=
 way: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fNWyTqUUN0
> > >
> > > it is important to refresh teh solution at least once per week. In ot=
her words, if you are distributing 10 gallons a wekk using a 60 gallon unit=
 the inputs compound on themselves. We suggest adding a certian amoutn of i=
nput for every 5 gallons of water added to the unit. It works great.
> > >
> > > This not only makes sense on a convenience level, but also on a "plan=
t food" level. We all know microbes make perfect plant food. When attaining=
 a shredder dominance after 48 hours it makes sense that this process creat=
es more plant food the longer the tea is brewed. After all, the guts of bac=
teria make up humus, i.e. plant food.
> > >
> > > We are not suggesting that this provides a replicable biological prod=
uct, only that it is a living solution that cannot be purtchased from a she=
lf. Depending on the application, the plant food aspect may be more importa=
nt than the biological aspect. Consider container gardening or indoor garde=
ning where the goal is not necessarily to establish an operating soil food =
web.
> > >
> > > We have distributed compost tea from a Vortex Brewer to every gardeni=
ng situation imagineable over the last 5-6 years, sometimes with a brew tha=
t has been spinning for up to 6 months without cleaning the unit, and never=
 have we had a negative response.
> > >
> > > I would not receommend using other compost tea units in this capacity=
, not because it will not work, but becasue I have not personally tested it=
. There is still MUCH work to do to determine the potentials of compost tea=
, but perpetual brewing sure makes sense from our perspective.
> > >
> > > Evan
> > > www.VortexBrewer.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "RTS Friction - Carruthers" <home=
_at_> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > It would seem you run the risk of outside contamination if you cont=
inue to use your base stock, much the same as using your yeast again and ag=
ain in beer making. Look forward to other comments good question.
> > > > If you trail through the archives you will see the discussions on a=
dding extra food/nutrient, many members believe it is not necessary. Thanks=
 to good advice I now rely on the release of nutrients in the compost/vermi=
cast to multiply the MO's, I do add a little barley malt if using the tea f=
or getting the compost heap going or doing a lawn drench.
> > > > Ian C
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Paul M Moriarty To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 9:03 PM
> > > >
> > > > New guy here. I've searched through the archives and haven't foun=
d an answer to my question. Hopefully, one of you can help me out.
> > > >
> > > > Is it possible to just keep a batch of tea going by, draining off=
 1/2 the tea and replacing with water & food as one would with a sourdough =
starter, or is it necessary to replenish the castings as well? As an urban =
farmer, I'm trying to get as much mileage out of my castings as possible.
> > > >
> > >
> >
>




Received on Sat Jun 25 2011 - 15:05:39 EDT

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