Since it is Sunday
http://www.microbeorganics.com/index.html#My_DVD
Evan; I really believe you are way over complicating the microbial perspect=
ive as it relates to compost tea and extract. Of course you need nothing li=
ke DNA testing to see the diversity I described.
There is absolutely no labelling required whatsoever to say that a device i=
s capable of extracting and multiplying bacteria/archaea, protozoa and fung=
al hyphae. Where does that come from?
PGPR = plant growth promoting rhizobacteria, which is what you have been =
describing. They are all over the market; some good, some not so good. They=
definitely are restricted to what they say on the label.
I'll read your citation concerning humus creation re: jelly pockets but I w=
ill try to post a relatively scientific paper in the files section here whi=
ch was an eye opener for me on humus. Humus still remains undefined. [Even =
though some cat in New Mexico claims to create his own]
Glad to hear the good DO2 rate. I suppose there is great potential for vari=
ous nutrients uptaken in natural growing to be non-detectable but for now I=
'm going to concern myself with those that can be for production of data if=
possible. My data, which you will discover by seeing my webpage consists o=
f video recordings of microbial populations.
Adios Amigo,
Tim
--- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "evanfolds" <evan_at_...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for your response, Tim. I have no seen your DVD, how can I?
>
> by the way, just took a DO reading from the Vortex Brewer on a perpetual =
brew that's been spinning for over a month and it was 7.8.
>
> Regardless of how informed one is in recognizing biological diversity, tr=
ue diversity cannot be attained without DNA testing. That is not to say tha=
t it is not valuable to have scope experience in identifying different cate=
gories of microbe, simply a statement of the obvious truth.
>
> For instance, we get people confused about our biological products all th=
e time because we do not claim microbes on the label. We do this for two re=
asons. One, we don't propose we can know all the microbes in our biological=
s. They are created on a farm that has been in the same family for 350 year=
s and have a complexity we cannot know. Second, according to labeling laws,=
only certain strains (Bacillus, mycchorizae) are accepted. This leaves peo=
ple to believe they are the only ones that are important. Some on this list=
may take issue with that, but you should deal with the general public ever=
y day. Most people simply believe what they are told. It's the same when 99=
% of this country believes Miracle Gro is sufficient to maintian health in =
an ecosystem. Most of the time they don't even know what an ecosystem is, t=
hey think microbes are the reason for hand sanitizer. Not trying to be ugly=
, its simply the truth. Not being able to claim biological existence on a l=
abel cripples people's ability to know about them. This has happened with "=
essential nutrients" with plants. Plants can use 50-60 elements directly or=
indirectly (microbes all of them as co-factors), yet the "experts" speak o=
f 17 at the most.
>
> It is my belief that the onset of degenerative disease in modern society =
is a direct (with no smoking gun) result of growing plants (and microbes) f=
or what they have to have, not what they want, or, better, what we need fro=
m them.
>
> Most importantly, however, assuming we can identify microbes, is what fun=
ction those microbes perform. We know very little about this considering es=
timates that only 1/4 of the fungal species have even been identified, for =
example.
>
> Potential NEW microbe species: http://www.npr.org/2011/05/12/136207874/a-=
new-somewhat-moldy-branch-on-the-tree-of-life
>
> Further, in regards to biological strength and ability, we are both human=
s. You may be a better soccer player (N cycler) and I may be a better baske=
tball player (digester), but one cannot tell this by looking at us under a =
microscope. If you purchase a microbe grown in a Petri dish with no natural=
stress or predator, the organism is weaker. This is another simple stateme=
nt of truth. They lack life experience and have not worked with other organ=
isms. These are not tiny programed machines, they are living life forms.
>
> What are "PGPR products"?
>
> There is even thought that certain species of microbes, outside of indivi=
dual ability, are "smarter" than others. Check out this article on a "smart=
community" or vortex bacteria ;)
>
> http://www.dynamicyouth.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article=
&id=1748:social-iq-score-of-bacteria&catid=79:research&Itemid=89
>
> It would make sense to most, I imagine, that much of the benefit from mic=
robes comes in their complexity (diversity). Meaning that often it is the a=
ssistance of a microbe that has no interaction with a plant directly toward=
s a microbe that does, that accounts for the incalculable work done by micr=
obes for plants and Nature. To use a basketball analogy, what if the starte=
r cant come out of the game and there's no 6th man? Further, what if there =
is no trainer or assistant coach?
>
> Consider a plant, we can grow them with ionic minerals, but we all know t=
he benefit of having a microbe help.
>
> Consider a human, there are microbes in our gut that use Yttrium to help =
us digest our food. Yttrium has no direct use by humans that we know, but i=
f it is not found in our diet, and it is not found in most people's anymore=
, microbes cannot cycle Aluminium in our intestines. This has been implicat=
ed in Alzheimers and other degenerative diseases, especially with people ea=
ting so much Al in pharmaceuticals and using it in their underarms. This is=
the importance of using ALL elements as tools for microbes. Read "Minerals=
for the Genetic Code", by Dr. Olree.
>
> Nature barely ever works directly. Therefore we don't know as much as we =
think we know. Given this innate complexity, how is a human supposed to kno=
w how to create a proper biological inoculant? What if the coach (human) pu=
ts the wrong players (microbes) on the court? Five point guards can't beat =
a well balanced basketball team, and the center must get the assist from th=
e point guard to dunk the ball.
>
> To put it another way, to realize the importance of biological teamwork, =
what if a trapeze artist picked someone out of the crowd to catch her on he=
r pass?
>
> Unfortunately, due to the dynamic nature of what we are discussing, there=
may be no way to prove the lab grown weakness hypothesis directly except o=
ut of subjective experience and intuition. We can't set up an obstacle cour=
se and let them run through it. :) This, of course, is what prevents people=
from gravitating towards concepts like BioDynamics due to us being trained=
to expect hard quantifiable data to even consider entertaining potential t=
ruths.
>
> Arguably, the most important aspects of living systems are unmeasureable =
and unobservable.
>
> The scientific method, while allowing us to advance as a species, cripple=
s us. It says that a hypothesis can only be a theory and then a law if it h=
appens the same way every time. Remember that Nature does not work this way=
, by design. She works in chaos and spirals. The consepquence of the anthro=
pocetric concept of the scientific method, again, while not worthless, is m=
aking "laws" for humans that do not jive with the laws of Nature. In fact, =
they are counterintuitive. Newton pondered gravity by getting hit in the he=
ad by the apple, or so the fable goes, but we spend no time discussing how =
the apple got up there to begin with.
>
> Without acknowledging the unobservable and unmeasureable life force invol=
ved in natural systems, we are only considering half the story.
>
> In regards to the shredder part, yes, that is what I'm referring too. Rea=
d Podolinski for his descriptions of humus. He describes it as the guts of =
microbes that form jelly pockets in the soil. becasue "plant food" is conta=
ined in certian zoes in the soil the plant can choose to drink or eat at wi=
ll depending on if the sun is out or teh time of day. When using soluble ar=
tificial nutrients there is no jelly pocket, "food" is found throughout teh=
soil and the drinking roots of plants cannot help but eat as well. This ac=
counts for initial higher yields, but is actually only obesity. His descrip=
tion resonates with me.
>
> You should also read Steiner on the concept of "You are what you eat". It=
's easy to think of microbes cycling nutrients through their poop, but we a=
gain can easily oversimplify things. Some may not see the connection here, =
but "nutrition" is a relative thing from a non-materialistic perspective: h=
ttp://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/NutHealth/19240731p01.html
>
> In the end, organic matter does not just melt. I consider microbes to be =
responsible for ALL end results in healthy soil. Just as they are for us in=
our gut, or worms and bacteria in theirs, or termites and fungi in theirs.=
This is why microbes are so important. They help plants, but most importan=
tly they make plant food in the cycle of life.
>
> If plant food is not kept in solution after being created, where does it =
go? I too believe that this can be documented, but it will not be directly,=
I presume. There is a disconnect between articially created nutrients and =
natural. For instance, I can spray a 2000ppm solution of Earth TOnic on a p=
lant and it will love it. If I do the same with an artificial nutrient it w=
ill murder the plant. Nature has a way of balancing things that a human can=
never know. We must be humble to this.
>
> We have people using natural nutrients in our retail store all the time w=
ith an NPK that is 2-1-1 who get MUCH better results than when they uised a=
n artifical nutrient with a 15-10-10. I'm sure everyone is aware on some le=
vel the difference of nutrition from Nature versus a factory.
>
> I'm curious to hear the thoughts of the lab we find to this work. Are teh=
y set up to assay ionic minerals or biological plant food. I suspect there =
is a difference, and maybe one we cannot detect readily.
>
> Let me know on that DVD..
>
> evan
> www.VortexBrewer.com
>
>
> --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "Tim Wilson" <thegoodjob_at_> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Evan;
> >
> > Two things jumped at me from your post;
> >
> > 1/ Diversity; The type of diversity which is qualified/quantified by DN=
A testing is the species (genera?) difference in bacteria, archaea and fung=
i genera. The type of diversity I am talking about is bacteria/archaea, fla=
gellates, naked amoebae, testate amoebae, ciliates, rotifers, fungal hyphae=
. These are easily discerned microscopically; as simple as looking outdoors=
to see the types of animals and birds in your backyard. There are also dif=
ferences which can be discerned inter species. If I see entirely different =
shapes and motility within bacterial/archaeal species I can assume they are=
of different genera but this is not hard and fast with this group. Likewis=
e with fungal hyphae if they grow differently, produce different spores and=
throw down septate at different distances, have different membranes, etc. =
I can conclude they are of different genera. With flagellates, ciliates and=
amoebae it is quite simple to discern different genera visually. And you d=
on't need to know their name to know they are different. That is the divers=
ity I'm looking for in a compost tea, soil or compost sample. Have you seen=
my DVD?
> >
> > 2/ Shredders;
> > You mention shredders as providers of plant food and I believe humus cr=
eators if I'm not mistaken. I presume you are speaking of the predators lik=
e protozoa and nematodes. My understanding of how nutrients are cycled to p=
lants microbially is protozoa consume bacteria/archaea and utilize only 30 =
to 40 percent of the energy derived for sustenance. What they excrete is th=
e 60 to 70 percent in bioavailable (ionic form - soluble) nutrients which c=
an be directly uptaken by plants.
> >
> > I believe (as far as I know today) that the creation of humus is somewh=
at still in unknown territory but I had not heard the hypothesis of it bein=
g formed from the guts of bacteria (microbes). There are two (that I know o=
f) schools of thought on what comprises humus as to whether the organic mat=
erial is no longer recognizeable and it is a unique molecular structure (hu=
mic polymers or covalent bonded) OR where some aspect of the originating or=
ganic matter is detectable and it forms a molecular aggregate structure (su=
pramolecular aggregates or non-covalent bonded).
> >
> > As we have discussed, it is my thought that if a compost tea would 'hol=
d' nutrients in solution as a factor of predation having taken place, then =
it would seem a perpetual brew would make better sense. If these nutrients =
are in solution, it should be relatively easy to detect them through 'depen=
dable' laboratory testing. I do believe the testing would need to be done w=
ithout any extraction processes but that is my uneducated hypothesis.
> >
> > The specialty or talented bacteria which you mentioned may have somepla=
ce in compost tea but presently I see them more as something which may be s=
pecifically fermented or purchased ready to use, as is much the case with t=
he PGPR products.
> >
> > Salutations,
> > Tim
> >
> >
> > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "evanfolds" <evan_at_> wrote:
> > >
> > > Sorry for the product plug, Tim, hard to get the point across otherwi=
se.
> > >
> > > We have tracked DO in the past with a perpetual brew, but nothing I c=
an regurgitate. I have tasked my guys to track that with a fresh brew start=
ing the beginning of next week along with what we are adding daily for refe=
rence and will report back.
> > >
> > > I will admit that the quality of the microbe, and possibly the divers=
ity, is compromised when brewing perpetually. Who's determining ACTUAL dive=
rsity anyway wihtout DNA testing? However, that is of relative importance. =
Put it this way, ANY living solution is better than none as long as it is n=
ot aerobic. In other words, when people take a perpetual brew from a garden=
store they cannot buy the equivalant from a shelf.
> > >
> > > Also, I realize that this is a compost tea forum mostly interested in=
the biological aspects of living solutions, and rightfully so. But the asp=
ect of compsot tea that gets perpetually glossed over is the fact that micr=
obes make perfect plant food. What I think is happening over time is that t=
he longer you brew the more plant food you have.
> > >
> > > Tim, you reference that you think ciliates are nutrient cyclers, and =
I would agree. I would argue that ALL microbes are nutrient cyclers in thei=
r own right. The shredders spill the guts of bacteria and create humus, or =
plant food. Arguably, the more shredding you have going on, the more plant =
food you have. The people in the testimonial video may simply be reacting t=
o the perfect plant food beenfit, not the biological influence. I like to t=
hink the living microbes have a direct influence, but how can one know for =
sure?
> > >
> > > It all depends on the application. For instance, an indoor grower who=
is planning on throwing his potting soil away in 3-4 months is not necessa=
rily trying to establish a soil food web in his container. His interests ma=
y be more on the plant food emphasis, therefore perpetual brewing makes mor=
e sense to him. We have many growers who keep perpetual brews going and use=
on every watering.
> > >
> > > In another context there may be a farmer who is interested in the lon=
g term biological balance in his soil who may benefit more by batch brewing=
and ensuring the sanctity of the microbes involved.
> > >
> > > The point is, we don't know for sure.
> > >
> > > The future is defining applications and the need for certain microbes=
in those applications, then establishing food sources and brew times that =
encourage those microbes needed most effectively. This research has not bee=
n done, and is barely even discussed.
> > >
> > > Without a baseline of what soil "should" be, we're pretty much shooti=
ng in the dark. However, there are certain applications that warrant progre=
ss. I saw the other day a reference from a Australian farmer who discovered=
that there is actually a bacteria responsible for frost damage in plants. =
In other words, its not the temperature, but an excretion on the leaf surfa=
ce by a certain microbe that makes the plants vulnerable and crstalizes the=
moisture. What if we could determine a predator for this microbe and use a=
food source and brew time that encouraged it? The mind races at the potetn=
ial applications, but this is the future.
> > >
> > > There are also variables involved that throw a monkey wrench into the=
se ideas. For example, the strength of microbes. We discuss microbes as if =
they are all the same, but this is not true. Keep in mind that you cannot s=
ee biological strength under a microscope. In other words, a lab analysis c=
an only get you so far in regards to how the specific microbe influences gr=
owing plants. I don't know of any labs connecting biological assays and sou=
rcews with plant growth...and this is the most important thing!
> > >
> > > One way to think about this is biodynamics. In the biodynamic method =
compost is not turned. In other words, the microbe is challenged to operate=
in an aerobic/anaerobic capacity, as Dr. Ingham referenced in a post a cou=
ple of weeks ago. The result is that the mcirobes are challenged more, they=
develop more life experince, so to speak. If you coddle your children are =
they going to end up as accomplsihed adults? You get the idea.
> > >
> > > Anyway, food for thought. When we get some results I'll report back..=
.peace
> > >
> > > evan
> > > www.VortexBrewer.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "Tim Wilson" <thegoodjob_at_> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I was hoping you would speak up on this subject Evan. I'd be more i=
nterested in the tracked dissolved oxygen than the testimonials (BTW I don'=
t know if anyone told you advertising is on Sundays only) I do believe that=
a semi-perpetual brew is possible but do not know whether it is more benef=
icial than starting a brew over. Some of the longterm brews I've carried ou=
t have wound up with a predominence of ciliates and/or fungal hyphae quite =
devoured by bacteria.
> > > >
> > > > If you have tracked the microbial development and/or DO2 I'd be int=
erested in hearing/seeing.
> > > >
> > > > I was asked recently to put on a seminar for a college growing prog=
ram and they did not have a brewer. I threw together a 5 gallon airlift bre=
wer to donate, using the 2 CFM Hailea. Because of time constraints we start=
ed the brew at my place so it would be on about 36 hours for the seminar. I=
checked the brew at 11 hours and it blew my mind. It was complete. Bacteri=
a/archaea, flagellates & mega fungal hyphae. The DO2 was 8.2 ppm. Next morn=
ing shut it down, drove about 2 hours, then started the brew back up again.=
I did not take the O2 meter but samples under the scope at 36 to 40 hours =
were beginning to show chewed down hyphae and quite an abundance of ciliate=
s and less flagellates. Now does that mean the ACT is not as functional? I =
don't know. But it was on its way to being overun by ciliates. We've been t=
old by some in the field, this is a bad sign. I believe ciliates cycle nutr=
ients but I think the lack of diversity is not great.
> > > >
> > > > On an upnote; What an incredible little brewer I stumbled on.
> > > >
> > > > *Evan; I'm working on the testing thing.
> > > >
> > > > Salutations,
> > > > Tim
> > > >
> > > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "evanfolds" <evan_at_> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > We have been brewing perpetually for many years using a Vortex Br=
ewer. Here is a video of many happy customers using compost tea created in =
this way:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fNWyTqUUN0
> > > > >
> > > > > it is important to refresh teh solution at least once per week. I=
n other words, if you are distributing 10 gallons a wekk using a 60 gallon =
unit the inputs compound on themselves. We suggest adding a certian amoutn =
of input for every 5 gallons of water added to the unit. It works great.
> > > > >
> > > > > This not only makes sense on a convenience level, but also on a "=
plant food" level. We all know microbes make perfect plant food. When attai=
ning a shredder dominance after 48 hours it makes sense that this process c=
reates more plant food the longer the tea is brewed. After all, the guts of=
bacteria make up humus, i.e. plant food.
> > > > >
> > > > > We are not suggesting that this provides a replicable biological =
product, only that it is a living solution that cannot be purtchased from a=
shelf. Depending on the application, the plant food aspect may be more imp=
ortant than the biological aspect. Consider container gardening or indoor g=
ardening where the goal is not necessarily to establish an operating soil f=
ood web.
> > > > >
> > > > > We have distributed compost tea from a Vortex Brewer to every gar=
dening situation imagineable over the last 5-6 years, sometimes with a brew=
that has been spinning for up to 6 months without cleaning the unit, and n=
ever have we had a negative response.
> > > > >
> > > > > I would not receommend using other compost tea units in this capa=
city, not because it will not work, but becasue I have not personally teste=
d it. There is still MUCH work to do to determine the potentials of compost=
tea, but perpetual brewing sure makes sense from our perspective.
> > > > >
> > > > > Evan
> > > > > www.VortexBrewer.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "RTS Friction - Carruthers" <=
home_at_> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It would seem you run the risk of outside contamination if you =
continue to use your base stock, much the same as using your yeast again an=
d again in beer making. Look forward to other comments good question.
> > > > > > If you trail through the archives you will see the discussions =
on adding extra food/nutrient, many members believe it is not necessary. Th=
anks to good advice I now rely on the release of nutrients in the compost/v=
ermicast to multiply the MO's, I do add a little barley malt if using the t=
ea for getting the compost heap going or doing a lawn drench.
> > > > > > Ian C
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: Paul M Moriarty To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 9:03 PM
> > > > > >
> > > > > > New guy here. I've searched through the archives and haven't =
found an answer to my question. Hopefully, one of you can help me out.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is it possible to just keep a batch of tea going by, draining=
off 1/2 the tea and replacing with water & food as one would with a sourdo=
ugh starter, or is it necessary to replenish the castings as well? As an ur=
ban farmer, I'm trying to get as much mileage out of my castings as possibl=
e.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Received on Sun Jun 26 2011 - 20:35:30 EDT