[compost_tea] Re: can a brew continue by simply adding nutrients?

From: evanfolds <evan_at_progressearth.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 13:08:37 -0000

Tim, I'm not trying to overcomplicate compost tea. I'm simply trying to spe=
ak to its complexity. The reality is that the only way to illustrate actual=
 diversity is through DNA testing. I work loosely with a local lab who sepc=
ializes in E.coli testing. We live at the end of the Caope Fear river in NC=
 and there are more hogs than people in this state. They track contaminatio=
n sources to outbreaks in water ways and are able to reverse engineer where=
 it comes from. Pretty cool. Of course, they cannot tell this without DNA t=
esting. That's my point. Not that you cannot get valuable information out w=
hat you are doing. That is not my point.

Bottom line, if we assume we can get what we need from a visual observation=
 we end up like Justis von Liebig (the man who gave us the NPK and crippled=
 agriculture forever) identifying "essential nutrients" from an ashing expe=
riment. After all, he went to his grave regretting that:

"Unfortunately the true beauty of agriculture with its intellectual and ani=
mating principles is almost unrecognized. The art of agriculture will be lo=
st when ignorant, unscientific and short sighted teachers persuade the farm=
er to put all his hopes in universal remedies, which don't exist in nature.=
 Following their advice, bedazzled by an ephemeral success, the farmer will=
 forget the soil and lose sight of his inherent values and their influence.=
" Source: Fauna in soil ecosystems, by Gero Benckiser (p 6)

Now I'm not trying to compare you to von Liebig, or suggest that you are ig=
norant or unscientific, simply trying to illustrate the power and folly of =
humanity when they attempt to define the natural world strictly through vis=
ual and quantifiable means.

evan
www.VortexBrewer.com


--- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "Tim Wilson" <thegoodjob_at_...> wrote:
>
> Since it is Sunday http://www.microbeorganics.com/index.html#My_DVD
>
> Evan; I really believe you are way over complicating the microbial perspe=
ctive as it relates to compost tea and extract. Of course you need nothing =
like DNA testing to see the diversity I described.
>
> There is absolutely no labelling required whatsoever to say that a device=
 is capable of extracting and multiplying bacteria/archaea, protozoa and fu=
ngal hyphae. Where does that come from?
>
> PGPR = plant growth promoting rhizobacteria, which is what you have bee=
n describing. They are all over the market; some good, some not so good. Th=
ey definitely are restricted to what they say on the label.
>
> I'll read your citation concerning humus creation re: jelly pockets but I=
 will try to post a relatively scientific paper in the files section here w=
hich was an eye opener for me on humus. Humus still remains undefined. [Eve=
n though some cat in New Mexico claims to create his own]
>
> Glad to hear the good DO2 rate. I suppose there is great potential for va=
rious nutrients uptaken in natural growing to be non-detectable but for now=
 I'm going to concern myself with those that can be for production of data =
if possible. My data, which you will discover by seeing my webpage consists=
 of video recordings of microbial populations.
>
> Adios Amigo,
> Tim
>
> --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "evanfolds" <evan_at_> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for your response, Tim. I have no seen your DVD, how can I?
> >
> > by the way, just took a DO reading from the Vortex Brewer on a perpetua=
l brew that's been spinning for over a month and it was 7.8.
> >
> > Regardless of how informed one is in recognizing biological diversity, =
true diversity cannot be attained without DNA testing. That is not to say t=
hat it is not valuable to have scope experience in identifying different ca=
tegories of microbe, simply a statement of the obvious truth.
> >
> > For instance, we get people confused about our biological products all =
the time because we do not claim microbes on the label. We do this for two =
reasons. One, we don't propose we can know all the microbes in our biologic=
als. They are created on a farm that has been in the same family for 350 ye=
ars and have a complexity we cannot know. Second, according to labeling law=
s, only certain strains (Bacillus, mycchorizae) are accepted. This leaves p=
eople to believe they are the only ones that are important. Some on this li=
st may take issue with that, but you should deal with the general public ev=
ery day. Most people simply believe what they are told. It's the same when =
99% of this country believes Miracle Gro is sufficient to maintian health i=
n an ecosystem. Most of the time they don't even know what an ecosystem is,=
 they think microbes are the reason for hand sanitizer. Not trying to be ug=
ly, its simply the truth. Not being able to claim biological existence on a=
 label cripples people's ability to know about them. This has happened with=
 "essential nutrients" with plants. Plants can use 50-60 elements directly =
or indirectly (microbes all of them as co-factors), yet the "experts" speak=
 of 17 at the most.
> >
> > It is my belief that the onset of degenerative disease in modern societ=
y is a direct (with no smoking gun) result of growing plants (and microbes)=
 for what they have to have, not what they want, or, better, what we need f=
rom them.
> >
> > Most importantly, however, assuming we can identify microbes, is what f=
unction those microbes perform. We know very little about this considering =
estimates that only 1/4 of the fungal species have even been identified, fo=
r example.
> >
> > Potential NEW microbe species: http://www.npr.org/2011/05/12/136207874/=
a-new-somewhat-moldy-branch-on-the-tree-of-life
> >
> > Further, in regards to biological strength and ability, we are both hum=
ans. You may be a better soccer player (N cycler) and I may be a better bas=
ketball player (digester), but one cannot tell this by looking at us under =
a microscope. If you purchase a microbe grown in a Petri dish with no natur=
al stress or predator, the organism is weaker. This is another simple state=
ment of truth. They lack life experience and have not worked with other org=
anisms. These are not tiny programed machines, they are living life forms.=
 
> >
> > What are "PGPR products"?
> >
> > There is even thought that certain species of microbes, outside of indi=
vidual ability, are "smarter" than others. Check out this article on a "sma=
rt community" or vortex bacteria ;)
> >
> > http://www.dynamicyouth.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=artic=
le&id=1748:social-iq-score-of-bacteria&catid=79:research&Itemid=89
> >
> > It would make sense to most, I imagine, that much of the benefit from m=
icrobes comes in their complexity (diversity). Meaning that often it is the=
 assistance of a microbe that has no interaction with a plant directly towa=
rds a microbe that does, that accounts for the incalculable work done by mi=
crobes for plants and Nature. To use a basketball analogy, what if the star=
ter cant come out of the game and there's no 6th man? Further, what if ther=
e is no trainer or assistant coach?
> >
> > Consider a plant, we can grow them with ionic minerals, but we all know=
 the benefit of having a microbe help.
> >
> > Consider a human, there are microbes in our gut that use Yttrium to hel=
p us digest our food. Yttrium has no direct use by humans that we know, but=
 if it is not found in our diet, and it is not found in most people's anymo=
re, microbes cannot cycle Aluminium in our intestines. This has been implic=
ated in Alzheimers and other degenerative diseases, especially with people =
eating so much Al in pharmaceuticals and using it in their underarms. This =
is the importance of using ALL elements as tools for microbes. Read "Minera=
ls for the Genetic Code", by Dr. Olree.
> >
> > Nature barely ever works directly. Therefore we don't know as much as w=
e think we know. Given this innate complexity, how is a human supposed to k=
now how to create a proper biological inoculant? What if the coach (human) =
puts the wrong players (microbes) on the court? Five point guards can't bea=
t a well balanced basketball team, and the center must get the assist from =
the point guard to dunk the ball.
> >
> > To put it another way, to realize the importance of biological teamwork=
, what if a trapeze artist picked someone out of the crowd to catch her on =
her pass?
> >
> > Unfortunately, due to the dynamic nature of what we are discussing, the=
re may be no way to prove the lab grown weakness hypothesis directly except=
 out of subjective experience and intuition. We can't set up an obstacle co=
urse and let them run through it. :) This, of course, is what prevents peop=
le from gravitating towards concepts like BioDynamics due to us being train=
ed to expect hard quantifiable data to even consider entertaining potential=
 truths.
> >
> > Arguably, the most important aspects of living systems are unmeasureabl=
e and unobservable.
> >
> > The scientific method, while allowing us to advance as a species, cripp=
les us. It says that a hypothesis can only be a theory and then a law if it=
 happens the same way every time. Remember that Nature does not work this w=
ay, by design. She works in chaos and spirals. The consepquence of the anth=
ropocetric concept of the scientific method, again, while not worthless, is=
 making "laws" for humans that do not jive with the laws of Nature. In fact=
, they are counterintuitive. Newton pondered gravity by getting hit in the =
head by the apple, or so the fable goes, but we spend no time discussing ho=
w the apple got up there to begin with.
> >
> > Without acknowledging the unobservable and unmeasureable life force inv=
olved in natural systems, we are only considering half the story.
> >
> > In regards to the shredder part, yes, that is what I'm referring too. R=
ead Podolinski for his descriptions of humus. He describes it as the guts o=
f microbes that form jelly pockets in the soil. becasue "plant food" is con=
tained in certian zoes in the soil the plant can choose to drink or eat at =
will depending on if the sun is out or teh time of day. When using soluble =
artificial nutrients there is no jelly pocket, "food" is found throughout t=
eh soil and the drinking roots of plants cannot help but eat as well. This =
accounts for initial higher yields, but is actually only obesity. His descr=
iption resonates with me.
> >
> > You should also read Steiner on the concept of "You are what you eat". =
It's easy to think of microbes cycling nutrients through their poop, but we=
 again can easily oversimplify things. Some may not see the connection here=
, but "nutrition" is a relative thing from a non-materialistic perspective:=
 http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/NutHealth/19240731p01.html
> >
> > In the end, organic matter does not just melt. I consider microbes to b=
e responsible for ALL end results in healthy soil. Just as they are for us =
in our gut, or worms and bacteria in theirs, or termites and fungi in their=
s. This is why microbes are so important. They help plants, but most import=
antly they make plant food in the cycle of life.
> >
> > If plant food is not kept in solution after being created, where does i=
t go? I too believe that this can be documented, but it will not be directl=
y, I presume. There is a disconnect between articially created nutrients an=
d natural. For instance, I can spray a 2000ppm solution of Earth TOnic on a=
 plant and it will love it. If I do the same with an artificial nutrient it=
 will murder the plant. Nature has a way of balancing things that a human c=
an never know. We must be humble to this.
> >
> > We have people using natural nutrients in our retail store all the time=
 with an NPK that is 2-1-1 who get MUCH better results than when they uised=
 an artifical nutrient with a 15-10-10. I'm sure everyone is aware on some =
level the difference of nutrition from Nature versus a factory.
> >
> > I'm curious to hear the thoughts of the lab we find to this work. Are t=
ehy set up to assay ionic minerals or biological plant food. I suspect ther=
e is a difference, and maybe one we cannot detect readily.
> >
> > Let me know on that DVD..
> >
> > evan
> > www.VortexBrewer.com
> >
> >
> > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "Tim Wilson" <thegoodjob_at_> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Evan;
> > >
> > > Two things jumped at me from your post;
> > >
> > > 1/ Diversity; The type of diversity which is qualified/quantified by =
DNA testing is the species (genera?) difference in bacteria, archaea and fu=
ngi genera. The type of diversity I am talking about is bacteria/archaea, f=
lagellates, naked amoebae, testate amoebae, ciliates, rotifers, fungal hyph=
ae. These are easily discerned microscopically; as simple as looking outdoo=
rs to see the types of animals and birds in your backyard. There are also d=
ifferences which can be discerned inter species. If I see entirely differen=
t shapes and motility within bacterial/archaeal species I can assume they a=
re of different genera but this is not hard and fast with this group. Likew=
ise with fungal hyphae if they grow differently, produce different spores a=
nd throw down septate at different distances, have different membranes, etc=
. I can conclude they are of different genera. With flagellates, ciliates a=
nd amoebae it is quite simple to discern different genera visually. And you=
 don't need to know their name to know they are different. That is the dive=
rsity I'm looking for in a compost tea, soil or compost sample. Have you se=
en my DVD?
> > >
> > > 2/ Shredders;
> > > You mention shredders as providers of plant food and I believe humus =
creators if I'm not mistaken. I presume you are speaking of the predators l=
ike protozoa and nematodes. My understanding of how nutrients are cycled to=
 plants microbially is protozoa consume bacteria/archaea and utilize only 3=
0 to 40 percent of the energy derived for sustenance. What they excrete is =
the 60 to 70 percent in bioavailable (ionic form - soluble) nutrients which=
 can be directly uptaken by plants.
> > >
> > > I believe (as far as I know today) that the creation of humus is some=
what still in unknown territory but I had not heard the hypothesis of it be=
ing formed from the guts of bacteria (microbes). There are two (that I know=
 of) schools of thought on what comprises humus as to whether the organic m=
aterial is no longer recognizeable and it is a unique molecular structure (=
humic polymers or covalent bonded) OR where some aspect of the originating =
organic matter is detectable and it forms a molecular aggregate structure (=
supramolecular aggregates or non-covalent bonded).
> > >
> > > As we have discussed, it is my thought that if a compost tea would 'h=
old' nutrients in solution as a factor of predation having taken place, the=
n it would seem a perpetual brew would make better sense. If these nutrient=
s are in solution, it should be relatively easy to detect them through 'dep=
endable' laboratory testing. I do believe the testing would need to be done=
 without any extraction processes but that is my uneducated hypothesis.
> > >
> > > The specialty or talented bacteria which you mentioned may have somep=
lace in compost tea but presently I see them more as something which may be=
 specifically fermented or purchased ready to use, as is much the case with=
 the PGPR products.
> > >
> > > Salutations,
> > > Tim
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "evanfolds" <evan_at_> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Sorry for the product plug, Tim, hard to get the point across other=
wise.
> > > >
> > > > We have tracked DO in the past with a perpetual brew, but nothing I=
 can regurgitate. I have tasked my guys to track that with a fresh brew sta=
rting the beginning of next week along with what we are adding daily for re=
ference and will report back.
> > > >
> > > > I will admit that the quality of the microbe, and possibly the dive=
rsity, is compromised when brewing perpetually. Who's determining ACTUAL di=
versity anyway wihtout DNA testing? However, that is of relative importance=
. Put it this way, ANY living solution is better than none as long as it is=
 not aerobic. In other words, when people take a perpetual brew from a gard=
en store they cannot buy the equivalant from a shelf.
> > > >
> > > > Also, I realize that this is a compost tea forum mostly interested =
in the biological aspects of living solutions, and rightfully so. But the a=
spect of compsot tea that gets perpetually glossed over is the fact that mi=
crobes make perfect plant food. What I think is happening over time is that=
 the longer you brew the more plant food you have.
> > > >
> > > > Tim, you reference that you think ciliates are nutrient cyclers, an=
d I would agree. I would argue that ALL microbes are nutrient cyclers in th=
eir own right. The shredders spill the guts of bacteria and create humus, o=
r plant food. Arguably, the more shredding you have going on, the more plan=
t food you have. The people in the testimonial video may simply be reacting=
 to the perfect plant food beenfit, not the biological influence. I like to=
 think the living microbes have a direct influence, but how can one know fo=
r sure?
> > > >
> > > > It all depends on the application. For instance, an indoor grower w=
ho is planning on throwing his potting soil away in 3-4 months is not neces=
sarily trying to establish a soil food web in his container. His interests =
may be more on the plant food emphasis, therefore perpetual brewing makes m=
ore sense to him. We have many growers who keep perpetual brews going and u=
se on every watering.
> > > >
> > > > In another context there may be a farmer who is interested in the l=
ong term biological balance in his soil who may benefit more by batch brewi=
ng and ensuring the sanctity of the microbes involved.
> > > >
> > > > The point is, we don't know for sure.
> > > >
> > > > The future is defining applications and the need for certain microb=
es in those applications, then establishing food sources and brew times tha=
t encourage those microbes needed most effectively. This research has not b=
een done, and is barely even discussed.
> > > >
> > > > Without a baseline of what soil "should" be, we're pretty much shoo=
ting in the dark. However, there are certain applications that warrant prog=
ress. I saw the other day a reference from a Australian farmer who discover=
ed that there is actually a bacteria responsible for frost damage in plants=
. In other words, its not the temperature, but an excretion on the leaf sur=
face by a certain microbe that makes the plants vulnerable and crstalizes t=
he moisture. What if we could determine a predator for this microbe and use=
 a food source and brew time that encouraged it? The mind races at the pote=
tnial applications, but this is the future.
> > > >
> > > > There are also variables involved that throw a monkey wrench into t=
hese ideas. For example, the strength of microbes. We discuss microbes as i=
f they are all the same, but this is not true. Keep in mind that you cannot=
 see biological strength under a microscope. In other words, a lab analysis=
 can only get you so far in regards to how the specific microbe influences =
growing plants. I don't know of any labs connecting biological assays and s=
ourcews with plant growth...and this is the most important thing!
> > > >
> > > > One way to think about this is biodynamics. In the biodynamic metho=
d compost is not turned. In other words, the microbe is challenged to opera=
te in an aerobic/anaerobic capacity, as Dr. Ingham referenced in a post a c=
ouple of weeks ago. The result is that the mcirobes are challenged more, th=
ey develop more life experince, so to speak. If you coddle your children ar=
e they going to end up as accomplsihed adults? You get the idea.
> > > >
> > > > Anyway, food for thought. When we get some results I'll report back=
...peace
> > > >
> > > > evan
> > > > www.VortexBrewer.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "Tim Wilson" <thegoodjob_at_> wrot=
e:
> > > > >
> > > > > I was hoping you would speak up on this subject Evan. I'd be more=
 interested in the tracked dissolved oxygen than the testimonials (BTW I do=
n't know if anyone told you advertising is on Sundays only) I do believe th=
at a semi-perpetual brew is possible but do not know whether it is more ben=
eficial than starting a brew over. Some of the longterm brews I've carried =
out have wound up with a predominence of ciliates and/or fungal hyphae quit=
e devoured by bacteria.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you have tracked the microbial development and/or DO2 I'd be i=
nterested in hearing/seeing.
> > > > >
> > > > > I was asked recently to put on a seminar for a college growing pr=
ogram and they did not have a brewer. I threw together a 5 gallon airlift b=
rewer to donate, using the 2 CFM Hailea. Because of time constraints we sta=
rted the brew at my place so it would be on about 36 hours for the seminar.=
 I checked the brew at 11 hours and it blew my mind. It was complete. Bacte=
ria/archaea, flagellates & mega fungal hyphae. The DO2 was 8.2 ppm. Next mo=
rning shut it down, drove about 2 hours, then started the brew back up agai=
n. I did not take the O2 meter but samples under the scope at 36 to 40 hour=
s were beginning to show chewed down hyphae and quite an abundance of cilia=
tes and less flagellates. Now does that mean the ACT is not as functional? =
I don't know. But it was on its way to being overun by ciliates. We've been=
 told by some in the field, this is a bad sign. I believe ciliates cycle nu=
trients but I think the lack of diversity is not great.
> > > > >
> > > > > On an upnote; What an incredible little brewer I stumbled on.
> > > > >
> > > > > *Evan; I'm working on the testing thing.
> > > > >
> > > > > Salutations,
> > > > > Tim
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "evanfolds" <evan_at_> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We have been brewing perpetually for many years using a Vortex =
Brewer. Here is a video of many happy customers using compost tea created i=
n this way: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fNWyTqUUN0
> > > > > >
> > > > > > it is important to refresh teh solution at least once per week.=
 In other words, if you are distributing 10 gallons a wekk using a 60 gallo=
n unit the inputs compound on themselves. We suggest adding a certian amout=
n of input for every 5 gallons of water added to the unit. It works great.=
 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This not only makes sense on a convenience level, but also on a=
 "plant food" level. We all know microbes make perfect plant food. When att=
aining a shredder dominance after 48 hours it makes sense that this process=
 creates more plant food the longer the tea is brewed. After all, the guts =
of bacteria make up humus, i.e. plant food.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We are not suggesting that this provides a replicable biologica=
l product, only that it is a living solution that cannot be purtchased from=
 a shelf. Depending on the application, the plant food aspect may be more i=
mportant than the biological aspect. Consider container gardening or indoor=
 gardening where the goal is not necessarily to establish an operating soil=
 food web.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We have distributed compost tea from a Vortex Brewer to every g=
ardening situation imagineable over the last 5-6 years, sometimes with a br=
ew that has been spinning for up to 6 months without cleaning the unit, and=
 never have we had a negative response.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would not receommend using other compost tea units in this ca=
pacity, not because it will not work, but becasue I have not personally tes=
ted it. There is still MUCH work to do to determine the potentials of compo=
st tea, but perpetual brewing sure makes sense from our perspective.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Evan
> > > > > > www.VortexBrewer.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "RTS Friction - Carruthers"=
 <home_at_> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It would seem you run the risk of outside contamination if yo=
u continue to use your base stock, much the same as using your yeast again =
and again in beer making. Look forward to other comments good question.
> > > > > > > If you trail through the archives you will see the discussion=
s on adding extra food/nutrient, many members believe it is not necessary. =
Thanks to good advice I now rely on the release of nutrients in the compost=
/vermicast to multiply the MO's, I do add a little barley malt if using the=
 tea for getting the compost heap going or doing a lawn drench.
> > > > > > > Ian C
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: Paul M Moriarty To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 9:03 PM
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > New guy here. I've searched through the archives and haven'=
t found an answer to my question. Hopefully, one of you can help me out.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Is it possible to just keep a batch of tea going by, draini=
ng off 1/2 the tea and replacing with water & food as one would with a sour=
dough starter, or is it necessary to replenish the castings as well? As an =
urban farmer, I'm trying to get as much mileage out of my castings as possi=
ble.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>




Received on Mon Jun 27 2011 - 10:54:39 EDT

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