Evan,
There are quite a few scientists researching how nutrients are cycled in th=
e rhyzosphere via predation of bacteria/archaea by protozoa. Some of these =
are Marianne Clareholm, Michael Bonkowski, Bryan Griffiths, Vigdis Torsvik.=
Not only are many scientists studying this area but are also using DNA com=
bined with direct microscopy to attempt to determine bacterial/archaeal and=
fungal specialties of which you speak. I have quite a number of papers I c=
an send you but some are referenced on my webpage. [Did you read the paper =
on humus I posted for you?]
The thing about compost tea is that it is so simple to ascertain when you h=
ave the basic microbial population you are seeking for supporting the micro=
bial nutrient loop. The microbial nutrient loop refers fairly specifically =
to nutrients released by protozoa (mainly flagellates and naked amoebae) di=
rectly following consumption of bacteria/archaea. [this is not to slight th=
e presence of supportive fungi] There are some who have a vested interest i=
n complicating this but it is not complicated. It is similar to me choosing=
whether to pay a lawyer $30K to file a patent for me or do the fairly simp=
le work myself at a fraction of the cost. Lawyer's don't want lay people to=
learn their language just like many laboratories don't wish people to lear=
n they can count their own microbes.
When I brew a compost tea it may have 5,000 to 10,000 bacteria/archaea and =
5 flagellates per field and a hyphae complex every 10 fields at 18 hours or=
it may take 36 hours. With a microscope it is not a guessing game. Besides=
being able to evaluate this and observe this basic diversity, I am also ab=
le to see that I have some rigid flagellates which are round, some which ar=
e long and some which are bumpy and that I have two very different looking =
plastic flagellates. From this observation I can ascertain that I have 5 sp=
ecies/genera of flagellates. I might also observe that I have some tiny smo=
oth testate amoebae and some large rough shelled ones as well as some small=
directional spreading naked amoebae and some larger finger type pseudopod =
naked amoebae, indicating 4 species/genera of amoebae. I may also observe 2=
or more species/genera of ciliates. These are really easy to tell differen=
t types. Fungal hyphae is trickier but one can learn to identify species by=
spore appearance but as mentioned earlier, if I see really different septa=
l wall frequency, different colors and membranes, it usually follows that t=
here are different species/genera of fungi present. I don't usually expect =
to see many nematodes in compost tea but in a compost or soil sample, I can=
tell whether they are good nematodes which consume bacteria/archaea and cy=
cle nutrients by observing their mouth action OR not so good root and funga=
l suckers. I can also tell a male from a female with a microscope. Rotifers=
, unlike nematodes thrive in a compost tea but they are kinda rare, except =
in some vermicompost. [unfortunately some information out there has confuse=
d them with insect larvae] They are also great nutrient cyclers, as they co=
nsume bacteria/archaea. They are exciting to watch and there are different =
species/genera which can be identified visually. = Diversity
[NOTE: I use species/genera because I'm not sure which term is correct to u=
se]
Of course there is a whole other level of diversity involved with microbial=
species and there are things about compost tea, compost extract and compos=
t which we do not understand yet. This is one reason I strive for the highe=
st diversity in a brew so that I might apply the shotgun approach and allow=
the soil and plants to select the necessary players needed at the time of =
application.
If I know that my soil or plant is suffering from a certain pathogen and kn=
ow the type of microbe which might contribute to controlling this then I mi=
ght be better off to purchase one of the those products which contain it. O=
r if I wish to increase a specific type of free living nitrogen fixers or e=
ndomycorrhizal species then likewise I can apply spores of those species to=
the soil. Some of these bacterial types are likely contained in compost te=
a but this is a totally different game than the home grower or farmer using=
ACT for the shotgun approach.
That's my take anyway.
Salutations,
Tim
--- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "evanfolds" <evan_at_...> wrote:
>
> Tad, I agree with you. IN NO WAY am I trying to undermine the importance =
and relevance of working with a microscope. It is vital. I'm simply trying =
to point out exactly what you stated: "...frankly I don't know what all the=
different species and sub-species do in the rhizosphere anyway."
>
> That's it. We don't know. It is my opinion that we need to couple what we=
are seeing under a scope directly with how it works with growing plants. N=
obody to my knowledge is doing this.
>
> I also think we need to entertain a seperate metric of "microbial strengt=
h" into our analysis here. Without accounting for the reletaive strength of=
the same microbe from different sources, we are acting as if they are all =
the same. This may make testing easier, but it does no justice to the end r=
esult we all seek --> healthy biologically active soil that grows nutrient =
dense plants without pest & disease.
>
> I too am appreciateive of being part of this group...peace & light
>
> evan
> www.VortexBrewer.com
>
>
> --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "Tad" <tadhussey_at_> wrote:
> >
> > Evan and Tim,
> >
> > This discussion jumps around quite a bit, but I wanted to chime in on a=
few things.
> >
> > First of all, I think the importance of testing is largely understated =
and many commercial manufacturers of brewers don't do proper testing before=
selling their brewers or making claims as to efficacy. One SFI test is no=
t sufficient in my opinion, but is a good starting point. Successive micro=
scope work is better, even if it is qualitative in nature.
> >
> > Ethan, you talk about "true diversity" as something we cannot see or un=
derstand without DNA testing. I have to agree with Tim here in that direct=
microscopy is really the most effective methodology we have for evaluating=
microbial teas and extracts at this time. DNA testing would really not gi=
ve me much more information and is not realistic, as each brew would be dif=
ferent, and frankly I don't know what all the different species and sub-spe=
cies do in the rhizosphere anyway.
> >
> > However, I can tell the difference better a ciliate and a flagellate. =
I can see that they're both present in my tea and in good ratios. I can se=
e different morphology in the bacteria and whether it's motile or forming l=
arge areas on the slide of biomass. This is the diversity I'm talking abou=
t. It gives me data that I can then use to determine the quality of my pro=
duct.
> >
> > Every brew I've ever taken for longer than a few days lacks this divers=
ity. DNA testing is not going to show anything surprising in this regard. =
If I'm unable to find fungal hyphae through direct microscopy, it's not go=
ing to magically show up through other means of testing.
> >
> > Our solution to this issue was to have hydro shops brew 1-2 times a wee=
k, and customers just knew that if they wanted ACT, they would have to come=
in on a Weds or a Saturday and those would be the days it's available for =
purchase.
> >
> > Some manufacturers claim you can refrigerate their tea or store it for =
a period of time. I find this irresponsible and have yet to see anyone pro=
vide data to show otherwise. And personally, I don't see how they ever cou=
ld. With a properly made ACT, you've created an unsustainable amount of ae=
robic microbes at it's peak (avg 24-36 hours). I don't believe there is a =
way to maintain the diversity and concentrations of organisms over time.
> >
> > As Tim stated, it would be relatively easy to test Evan's theory about =
plant available nutrients being more accessible in longer brews by just tes=
ting for nutrients say at 24 hours and again a week later from the same liq=
uid, without any additions.
> >
> > I guess my point is that let's not throw out direct microscopy as the s=
tandard to evaluating teas, just because it doesn't answer every question w=
e might have. Spend enough time behind a microscope and I think you'll fin=
d that you can learn quite a bit about how your teas change over time. For=
instance, I can make a bacterial dominated tea, fungal dominated tea, or f=
lagellate dominated tea all from the same material, simply by adjusting the=
length of the brewing cycle.
> >
> > In order for out industry to continue to grow and gain legitimacy, I th=
ink it's important that we move away from testimonials, quasi-science, and =
unsubstantiated claims, and towards direct microscopy and methodology that =
can be replicated in a variety of environments and with different brewers.
> >
> > I think these discussions are beneficial as well. There's a lot of dif=
ferent knowledge and experience floating around in here and I'm glad to be =
a part of the group!
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Tad
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "evanfolds" <evan_at_> wrote:
> > >
> > > Tim, I'm not trying to overcomplicate compost tea. I'm simply trying =
to speak to its complexity. The reality is that the only way to illustrate =
actual diversity is through DNA testing. I work loosely with a local lab wh=
o sepcializes in E.coli testing. We live at the end of the Caope Fear river=
in NC and there are more hogs than people in this state. They track contam=
ination sources to outbreaks in water ways and are able to reverse engineer=
where it comes from. Pretty cool. Of course, they cannot tell this without=
DNA testing. That's my point. Not that you cannot get valuable information=
out what you are doing. That is not my point.
> > >
> > > Bottom line, if we assume we can get what we need from a visual obser=
vation we end up like Justis von Liebig (the man who gave us the NPK and cr=
ippled agriculture forever) identifying "essential nutrients" from an ashin=
g experiment. After all, he went to his grave regretting that:
> > >
> > > "Unfortunately the true beauty of agriculture with its intellectual a=
nd animating principles is almost unrecognized. The art of agriculture will=
be lost when ignorant, unscientific and short sighted teachers persuade th=
e farmer to put all his hopes in universal remedies, which don't exist in n=
ature. Following their advice, bedazzled by an ephemeral success, the farme=
r will forget the soil and lose sight of his inherent values and their infl=
uence." Source: Fauna in soil ecosystems, by Gero Benckiser (p 6)
> > >
> > > Now I'm not trying to compare you to von Liebig, or suggest that you =
are ignorant or unscientific, simply trying to illustrate the power and fol=
ly of humanity when they attempt to define the natural world strictly throu=
gh visual and quantifiable means.
> > >
> > > evan
> > > www.VortexBrewer.com
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "Tim Wilson" <thegoodjob_at_> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Since it is Sunday http://www.microbeorganics.com/index.html#My_DVD=
> > > >
> > > > Evan; I really believe you are way over complicating the microbial =
perspective as it relates to compost tea and extract. Of course you need no=
thing like DNA testing to see the diversity I described.
> > > >
> > > > There is absolutely no labelling required whatsoever to say that a =
device is capable of extracting and multiplying bacteria/archaea, protozoa =
and fungal hyphae. Where does that come from?
> > > >
> > > > PGPR = plant growth promoting rhizobacteria, which is what you ha=
ve been describing. They are all over the market; some good, some not so go=
od. They definitely are restricted to what they say on the label.
> > > >
> > > > I'll read your citation concerning humus creation re: jelly pockets=
but I will try to post a relatively scientific paper in the files section =
here which was an eye opener for me on humus. Humus still remains undefined=
. [Even though some cat in New Mexico claims to create his own]
> > > >
> > > > Glad to hear the good DO2 rate. I suppose there is great potential =
for various nutrients uptaken in natural growing to be non-detectable but f=
or now I'm going to concern myself with those that can be for production of=
data if possible. My data, which you will discover by seeing my webpage co=
nsists of video recordings of microbial populations.
> > > >
> > > > Adios Amigo,
> > > > Tim
> > > >
> > > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "evanfolds" <evan_at_> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for your response, Tim. I have no seen your DVD, how can I=
?
> > > > >
> > > > > by the way, just took a DO reading from the Vortex Brewer on a pe=
rpetual brew that's been spinning for over a month and it was 7.8.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regardless of how informed one is in recognizing biological diver=
sity, true diversity cannot be attained without DNA testing. That is not to=
say that it is not valuable to have scope experience in identifying differ=
ent categories of microbe, simply a statement of the obvious truth.
> > > > >
> > > > > For instance, we get people confused about our biological product=
s all the time because we do not claim microbes on the label. We do this fo=
r two reasons. One, we don't propose we can know all the microbes in our bi=
ologicals. They are created on a farm that has been in the same family for =
350 years and have a complexity we cannot know. Second, according to labeli=
ng laws, only certain strains (Bacillus, mycchorizae) are accepted. This le=
aves people to believe they are the only ones that are important. Some on t=
his list may take issue with that, but you should deal with the general pub=
lic every day. Most people simply believe what they are told. It's the same=
when 99% of this country believes Miracle Gro is sufficient to maintian he=
alth in an ecosystem. Most of the time they don't even know what an ecosyst=
em is, they think microbes are the reason for hand sanitizer. Not trying to=
be ugly, its simply the truth. Not being able to claim biological existenc=
e on a label cripples people's ability to know about them. This has happene=
d with "essential nutrients" with plants. Plants can use 50-60 elements dir=
ectly or indirectly (microbes all of them as co-factors), yet the "experts"=
speak of 17 at the most.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is my belief that the onset of degenerative disease in modern =
society is a direct (with no smoking gun) result of growing plants (and mic=
robes) for what they have to have, not what they want, or, better, what we =
need from them.
> > > > >
> > > > > Most importantly, however, assuming we can identify microbes, is =
what function those microbes perform. We know very little about this consid=
ering estimates that only 1/4 of the fungal species have even been identifi=
ed, for example.
> > > > >
> > > > > Potential NEW microbe species: http://www.npr.org/2011/05/12/1362=
07874/a-new-somewhat-moldy-branch-on-the-tree-of-life
> > > > >
> > > > > Further, in regards to biological strength and ability, we are bo=
th humans. You may be a better soccer player (N cycler) and I may be a bett=
er basketball player (digester), but one cannot tell this by looking at us =
under a microscope. If you purchase a microbe grown in a Petri dish with no=
natural stress or predator, the organism is weaker. This is another simple=
statement of truth. They lack life experience and have not worked with oth=
er organisms. These are not tiny programed machines, they are living life f=
orms.
> > > > >
> > > > > What are "PGPR products"?
> > > > >
> > > > > There is even thought that certain species of microbes, outside o=
f individual ability, are "smarter" than others. Check out this article on =
a "smart community" or vortex bacteria ;)
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.dynamicyouth.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=
=article&id=1748:social-iq-score-of-bacteria&catid=79:research&Itemid=
=89
> > > > >
> > > > > It would make sense to most, I imagine, that much of the benefit =
from microbes comes in their complexity (diversity). Meaning that often it =
is the assistance of a microbe that has no interaction with a plant directl=
y towards a microbe that does, that accounts for the incalculable work done=
by microbes for plants and Nature. To use a basketball analogy, what if th=
e starter cant come out of the game and there's no 6th man? Further, what i=
f there is no trainer or assistant coach?
> > > > >
> > > > > Consider a plant, we can grow them with ionic minerals, but we al=
l know the benefit of having a microbe help.
> > > > >
> > > > > Consider a human, there are microbes in our gut that use Yttrium =
to help us digest our food. Yttrium has no direct use by humans that we kno=
w, but if it is not found in our diet, and it is not found in most people's=
anymore, microbes cannot cycle Aluminium in our intestines. This has been =
implicated in Alzheimers and other degenerative diseases, especially with p=
eople eating so much Al in pharmaceuticals and using it in their underarms.=
This is the importance of using ALL elements as tools for microbes. Read "=
Minerals for the Genetic Code", by Dr. Olree.
> > > > >
> > > > > Nature barely ever works directly. Therefore we don't know as muc=
h as we think we know. Given this innate complexity, how is a human suppose=
d to know how to create a proper biological inoculant? What if the coach (h=
uman) puts the wrong players (microbes) on the court? Five point guards can=
't beat a well balanced basketball team, and the center must get the assist=
from the point guard to dunk the ball.
> > > > >
> > > > > To put it another way, to realize the importance of biological te=
amwork, what if a trapeze artist picked someone out of the crowd to catch h=
er on her pass?
> > > > >
> > > > > Unfortunately, due to the dynamic nature of what we are discussin=
g, there may be no way to prove the lab grown weakness hypothesis directly =
except out of subjective experience and intuition. We can't set up an obsta=
cle course and let them run through it. :) This, of course, is what prevent=
s people from gravitating towards concepts like BioDynamics due to us being=
trained to expect hard quantifiable data to even consider entertaining pot=
ential truths.
> > > > >
> > > > > Arguably, the most important aspects of living systems are unmeas=
ureable and unobservable.
> > > > >
> > > > > The scientific method, while allowing us to advance as a species,=
cripples us. It says that a hypothesis can only be a theory and then a law=
if it happens the same way every time. Remember that Nature does not work =
this way, by design. She works in chaos and spirals. The consepquence of th=
e anthropocetric concept of the scientific method, again, while not worthle=
ss, is making "laws" for humans that do not jive with the laws of Nature. I=
n fact, they are counterintuitive. Newton pondered gravity by getting hit i=
n the head by the apple, or so the fable goes, but we spend no time discuss=
ing how the apple got up there to begin with.
> > > > >
> > > > > Without acknowledging the unobservable and unmeasureable life for=
ce involved in natural systems, we are only considering half the story.
> > > > >
> > > > > In regards to the shredder part, yes, that is what I'm referring =
too. Read Podolinski for his descriptions of humus. He describes it as the =
guts of microbes that form jelly pockets in the soil. becasue "plant food" =
is contained in certian zoes in the soil the plant can choose to drink or e=
at at will depending on if the sun is out or teh time of day. When using so=
luble artificial nutrients there is no jelly pocket, "food" is found throug=
hout teh soil and the drinking roots of plants cannot help but eat as well.=
This accounts for initial higher yields, but is actually only obesity. His=
description resonates with me.
> > > > >
> > > > > You should also read Steiner on the concept of "You are what you =
eat". It's easy to think of microbes cycling nutrients through their poop, =
but we again can easily oversimplify things. Some may not see the connectio=
n here, but "nutrition" is a relative thing from a non-materialistic perspe=
ctive:
http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/NutHealth/19240731p01.html
> > > > >
> > > > > In the end, organic matter does not just melt. I consider microbe=
s to be responsible for ALL end results in healthy soil. Just as they are f=
or us in our gut, or worms and bacteria in theirs, or termites and fungi in=
theirs. This is why microbes are so important. They help plants, but most =
importantly they make plant food in the cycle of life.
> > > > >
> > > > > If plant food is not kept in solution after being created, where =
does it go? I too believe that this can be documented, but it will not be d=
irectly, I presume. There is a disconnect between articially created nutrie=
nts and natural. For instance, I can spray a 2000ppm solution of Earth TOni=
c on a plant and it will love it. If I do the same with an artificial nutri=
ent it will murder the plant. Nature has a way of balancing things that a h=
uman can never know. We must be humble to this.
> > > > >
> > > > > We have people using natural nutrients in our retail store all th=
e time with an NPK that is 2-1-1 who get MUCH better results than when they=
uised an artifical nutrient with a 15-10-10. I'm sure everyone is aware on=
some level the difference of nutrition from Nature versus a factory.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm curious to hear the thoughts of the lab we find to this work.=
Are tehy set up to assay ionic minerals or biological plant food. I suspec=
t there is a difference, and maybe one we cannot detect readily.
> > > > >
> > > > > Let me know on that DVD..
> > > > >
> > > > > evan
> > > > > www.VortexBrewer.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "Tim Wilson" <thegoodjob_at_> wr=
ote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Evan;
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Two things jumped at me from your post;
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1/ Diversity; The type of diversity which is qualified/quantifi=
ed by DNA testing is the species (genera?) difference in bacteria, archaea =
and fungi genera. The type of diversity I am talking about is bacteria/arch=
aea, flagellates, naked amoebae, testate amoebae, ciliates, rotifers, funga=
l hyphae. These are easily discerned microscopically; as simple as looking =
outdoors to see the types of animals and birds in your backyard. There are =
also differences which can be discerned inter species. If I see entirely di=
fferent shapes and motility within bacterial/archaeal species I can assume =
they are of different genera but this is not hard and fast with this group.=
Likewise with fungal hyphae if they grow differently, produce different sp=
ores and throw down septate at different distances, have different membrane=
s, etc. I can conclude they are of different genera. With flagellates, cili=
ates and amoebae it is quite simple to discern different genera visually. A=
nd you don't need to know their name to know they are different. That is th=
e diversity I'm looking for in a compost tea, soil or compost sample. Have =
you seen my DVD?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2/ Shredders;
> > > > > > You mention shredders as providers of plant food and I believe =
humus creators if I'm not mistaken. I presume you are speaking of the preda=
tors like protozoa and nematodes. My understanding of how nutrients are cyc=
led to plants microbially is protozoa consume bacteria/archaea and utilize =
only 30 to 40 percent of the energy derived for sustenance. What they excre=
te is the 60 to 70 percent in bioavailable (ionic form - soluble) nutrients=
which can be directly uptaken by plants.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I believe (as far as I know today) that the creation of humus i=
s somewhat still in unknown territory but I had not heard the hypothesis of=
it being formed from the guts of bacteria (microbes). There are two (that =
I know of) schools of thought on what comprises humus as to whether the org=
anic material is no longer recognizeable and it is a unique molecular struc=
ture (humic polymers or covalent bonded) OR where some aspect of the origin=
ating organic matter is detectable and it forms a molecular aggregate struc=
ture (supramolecular aggregates or non-covalent bonded).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As we have discussed, it is my thought that if a compost tea wo=
uld 'hold' nutrients in solution as a factor of predation having taken plac=
e, then it would seem a perpetual brew would make better sense. If these nu=
trients are in solution, it should be relatively easy to detect them throug=
h 'dependable' laboratory testing. I do believe the testing would need to b=
e done without any extraction processes but that is my uneducated hypothesi=
s.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The specialty or talented bacteria which you mentioned may have=
someplace in compost tea but presently I see them more as something which =
may be specifically fermented or purchased ready to use, as is much the cas=
e with the PGPR products.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Salutations,
> > > > > > Tim
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "evanfolds" <evan_at_> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sorry for the product plug, Tim, hard to get the point across=
otherwise.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > We have tracked DO in the past with a perpetual brew, but not=
hing I can regurgitate. I have tasked my guys to track that with a fresh br=
ew starting the beginning of next week along with what we are adding daily =
for reference and will report back.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I will admit that the quality of the microbe, and possibly th=
e diversity, is compromised when brewing perpetually. Who's determining ACT=
UAL diversity anyway wihtout DNA testing? However, that is of relative impo=
rtance. Put it this way, ANY living solution is better than none as long as=
it is not aerobic. In other words, when people take a perpetual brew from =
a garden store they cannot buy the equivalant from a shelf.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Also, I realize that this is a compost tea forum mostly inter=
ested in the biological aspects of living solutions, and rightfully so. But=
the aspect of compsot tea that gets perpetually glossed over is the fact t=
hat microbes make perfect plant food. What I think is happening over time i=
s that the longer you brew the more plant food you have.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Tim, you reference that you think ciliates are nutrient cycle=
rs, and I would agree. I would argue that ALL microbes are nutrient cyclers=
in their own right. The shredders spill the guts of bacteria and create hu=
mus, or plant food. Arguably, the more shredding you have going on, the mor=
e plant food you have. The people in the testimonial video may simply be re=
acting to the perfect plant food beenfit, not the biological influence. I l=
ike to think the living microbes have a direct influence, but how can one k=
now for sure?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It all depends on the application. For instance, an indoor gr=
ower who is planning on throwing his potting soil away in 3-4 months is not=
necessarily trying to establish a soil food web in his container. His inte=
rests may be more on the plant food emphasis, therefore perpetual brewing m=
akes more sense to him. We have many growers who keep perpetual brews going=
and use on every watering.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In another context there may be a farmer who is interested in=
the long term biological balance in his soil who may benefit more by batch=
brewing and ensuring the sanctity of the microbes involved.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The point is, we don't know for sure.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The future is defining applications and the need for certain =
microbes in those applications, then establishing food sources and brew tim=
es that encourage those microbes needed most effectively. This research has=
not been done, and is barely even discussed.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Without a baseline of what soil "should" be, we're pretty muc=
h shooting in the dark. However, there are certain applications that warran=
t progress. I saw the other day a reference from a Australian farmer who di=
scovered that there is actually a bacteria responsible for frost damage in =
plants. In other words, its not the temperature, but an excretion on the le=
af surface by a certain microbe that makes the plants vulnerable and crstal=
izes the moisture. What if we could determine a predator for this microbe a=
nd use a food source and brew time that encouraged it? The mind races at th=
e potetnial applications, but this is the future.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There are also variables involved that throw a monkey wrench =
into these ideas. For example, the strength of microbes. We discuss microbe=
s as if they are all the same, but this is not true. Keep in mind that you =
cannot see biological strength under a microscope. In other words, a lab an=
alysis can only get you so far in regards to how the specific microbe influ=
ences growing plants. I don't know of any labs connecting biological assays=
and sourcews with plant growth...and this is the most important thing! =
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > One way to think about this is biodynamics. In the biodynamic=
method compost is not turned. In other words, the microbe is challenged to=
operate in an aerobic/anaerobic capacity, as Dr. Ingham referenced in a po=
st a couple of weeks ago. The result is that the mcirobes are challenged mo=
re, they develop more life experince, so to speak. If you coddle your child=
ren are they going to end up as accomplsihed adults? You get the idea.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Anyway, food for thought. When we get some results I'll repor=
t back...peace
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > evan
> > > > > > > www.VortexBrewer.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "Tim Wilson" <thegoodjob_at_=
> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I was hoping you would speak up on this subject Evan. I'd b=
e more interested in the tracked dissolved oxygen than the testimonials (BT=
W I don't know if anyone told you advertising is on Sundays only) I do beli=
eve that a semi-perpetual brew is possible but do not know whether it is mo=
re beneficial than starting a brew over. Some of the longterm brews I've ca=
rried out have wound up with a predominence of ciliates and/or fungal hypha=
e quite devoured by bacteria.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If you have tracked the microbial development and/or DO2 I'=
d be interested in hearing/seeing.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I was asked recently to put on a seminar for a college grow=
ing program and they did not have a brewer. I threw together a 5 gallon air=
lift brewer to donate, using the 2 CFM Hailea. Because of time constraints =
we started the brew at my place so it would be on about 36 hours for the se=
minar. I checked the brew at 11 hours and it blew my mind. It was complete.=
Bacteria/archaea, flagellates & mega fungal hyphae. The DO2 was 8.2 ppm. N=
ext morning shut it down, drove about 2 hours, then started the brew back u=
p again. I did not take the O2 meter but samples under the scope at 36 to 4=
0 hours were beginning to show chewed down hyphae and quite an abundance of=
ciliates and less flagellates. Now does that mean the ACT is not as functi=
onal? I don't know. But it was on its way to being overun by ciliates. We'v=
e been told by some in the field, this is a bad sign. I believe ciliates cy=
cle nutrients but I think the lack of diversity is not great.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On an upnote; What an incredible little brewer I stumbled o=
n.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > *Evan; I'm working on the testing thing.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Salutations,
> > > > > > > > Tim
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "evanfolds" <evan_at_> wro=
te:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > We have been brewing perpetually for many years using a V=
ortex Brewer. Here is a video of many happy customers using compost tea cre=
ated in this way:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fNWyTqUUN0
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > it is important to refresh teh solution at least once per=
week. In other words, if you are distributing 10 gallons a wekk using a 60=
gallon unit the inputs compound on themselves. We suggest adding a certian=
amoutn of input for every 5 gallons of water added to the unit. It works g=
reat.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > This not only makes sense on a convenience level, but als=
o on a "plant food" level. We all know microbes make perfect plant food. Wh=
en attaining a shredder dominance after 48 hours it makes sense that this p=
rocess creates more plant food the longer the tea is brewed. After all, the=
guts of bacteria make up humus, i.e. plant food.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > We are not suggesting that this provides a replicable bio=
logical product, only that it is a living solution that cannot be purtchase=
d from a shelf. Depending on the application, the plant food aspect may be =
more important than the biological aspect. Consider container gardening or =
indoor gardening where the goal is not necessarily to establish an operatin=
g soil food web.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > We have distributed compost tea from a Vortex Brewer to e=
very gardening situation imagineable over the last 5-6 years, sometimes wit=
h a brew that has been spinning for up to 6 months without cleaning the uni=
t, and never have we had a negative response.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I would not receommend using other compost tea units in t=
his capacity, not because it will not work, but becasue I have not personal=
ly tested it. There is still MUCH work to do to determine the potentials of=
compost tea, but perpetual brewing sure makes sense from our perspective.=
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Evan
> > > > > > > > > www.VortexBrewer.com
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "RTS Friction - Carru=
thers" <home_at_> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > It would seem you run the risk of outside contamination=
if you continue to use your base stock, much the same as using your yeast =
again and again in beer making. Look forward to other comments good questio=
n.
> > > > > > > > > > If you trail through the archives you will see the disc=
ussions on adding extra food/nutrient, many members believe it is not neces=
sary. Thanks to good advice I now rely on the release of nutrients in the c=
ompost/vermicast to multiply the MO's, I do add a little barley malt if usi=
ng the tea for getting the compost heap going or doing a lawn drench.
> > > > > > > > > > Ian C
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > > > From: Paul M Moriarty To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com=
> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 9:03 PM
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > New guy here. I've searched through the archives and =
haven't found an answer to my question. Hopefully, one of you can help me o=
ut.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Is it possible to just keep a batch of tea going by, =
draining off 1/2 the tea and replacing with water & food as one would with =
a sourdough starter, or is it necessary to replenish the castings as well? =
As an urban farmer, I'm trying to get as much mileage out of my castings as=
possible.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Received on Fri Jul 01 2011 - 10:53:06 EDT