[compost_tea] Re: can a brew continue by simply adding nutrients?

From: evanfolds <evan_at_progressearth.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 13:59:47 -0000

Quite an intense review of humus, Tim. I skimmed it and read some of it, bu=
t not all of it yet.

There are certainly those studying the technicalities of these natural subs=
tances with great fervor and accomplishment, no doubt. What I was referring=
 too is the lack of emphasis on studying microbial balance and populations =
towards the growth of plants. After all, the impulse from studying the life=
 of the soil is in the context of what comes out of it. At least that is my=
 impulse.

It seems to me that if we started to connect what see under the scope with =
how it helps plants grow that we could go a long way in establishing a base=
line of what soil "should" be. This would lend more credence to the recomme=
ndatiosn given by labs.

Look at it from a mineral approach. You go the Extension Service and they a=
dvise you on how much ime to use to correct your pH on a piece of paper. Li=
me is comprised of Ca and Mg. What if you have a K deficiency? It's extreme=
ely short sighted and ignores the profound research done by Albrecht, et al=
 in the 40's. We know the sweet spot in soil with miunerals, but not microb=
es.

Just evaluating what you see under the scope in regards to what you usually=
 see does not address how well that microbial balance and population works =
in the soil in regards to growing healthy nutrient dense plants. I know the=
re are some at NC State that are beginning to address microbial balance in =
soil from this perspective, but they are 50 years behind the mineral approa=
ch.

I think this is what Jason was referencing in his "good luck getting fundin=
g" blurb.

By the way, Tim, great symopsis of your visual under the scope. I'm very mu=
ch looking forward to your DVD..

evan
www.VortexBrewer.com




--- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "Tim Wilson" <thegoodjob_at_...> wrote:
>
> Evan,
>
> There are quite a few scientists researching how nutrients are cycled in =
the rhyzosphere via predation of bacteria/archaea by protozoa. Some of thes=
e are Marianne Clareholm, Michael Bonkowski, Bryan Griffiths, Vigdis Torsvi=
k. Not only are many scientists studying this area but are also using DNA c=
ombined with direct microscopy to attempt to determine bacterial/archaeal a=
nd fungal specialties of which you speak. I have quite a number of papers I=
 can send you but some are referenced on my webpage. [Did you read the pape=
r on humus I posted for you?]
>
> The thing about compost tea is that it is so simple to ascertain when you=
 have the basic microbial population you are seeking for supporting the mic=
robial nutrient loop. The microbial nutrient loop refers fairly specificall=
y to nutrients released by protozoa (mainly flagellates and naked amoebae) =
directly following consumption of bacteria/archaea. [this is not to slight =
the presence of supportive fungi] There are some who have a vested interest=
 in complicating this but it is not complicated. It is similar to me choosi=
ng whether to pay a lawyer $30K to file a patent for me or do the fairly si=
mple work myself at a fraction of the cost. Lawyer's don't want lay people =
to learn their language just like many laboratories don't wish people to le=
arn they can count their own microbes.
>
> When I brew a compost tea it may have 5,000 to 10,000 bacteria/archaea an=
d 5 flagellates per field and a hyphae complex every 10 fields at 18 hours =
or it may take 36 hours. With a microscope it is not a guessing game. Besid=
es being able to evaluate this and observe this basic diversity, I am also =
able to see that I have some rigid flagellates which are round, some which =
are long and some which are bumpy and that I have two very different lookin=
g plastic flagellates. From this observation I can ascertain that I have 5 =
species/genera of flagellates. I might also observe that I have some tiny s=
mooth testate amoebae and some large rough shelled ones as well as some sma=
ll directional spreading naked amoebae and some larger finger type pseudopo=
d naked amoebae, indicating 4 species/genera of amoebae. I may also observe=
 2 or more species/genera of ciliates. These are really easy to tell differ=
ent types. Fungal hyphae is trickier but one can learn to identify species =
by spore appearance but as mentioned earlier, if I see really different sep=
tal wall frequency, different colors and membranes, it usually follows that=
 there are different species/genera of fungi present. I don't usually expec=
t to see many nematodes in compost tea but in a compost or soil sample, I c=
an tell whether they are good nematodes which consume bacteria/archaea and =
cycle nutrients by observing their mouth action OR not so good root and fun=
gal suckers. I can also tell a male from a female with a microscope. Rotife=
rs, unlike nematodes thrive in a compost tea but they are kinda rare, excep=
t in some vermicompost. [unfortunately some information out there has confu=
sed them with insect larvae] They are also great nutrient cyclers, as they =
consume bacteria/archaea. They are exciting to watch and there are differen=
t species/genera which can be identified visually. = Diversity
> [NOTE: I use species/genera because I'm not sure which term is correct to=
 use]
>
> Of course there is a whole other level of diversity involved with microbi=
al species and there are things about compost tea, compost extract and comp=
ost which we do not understand yet. This is one reason I strive for the hig=
hest diversity in a brew so that I might apply the shotgun approach and all=
ow the soil and plants to select the necessary players needed at the time o=
f application.
>
> If I know that my soil or plant is suffering from a certain pathogen and =
know the type of microbe which might contribute to controlling this then I =
might be better off to purchase one of the those products which contain it.=
 Or if I wish to increase a specific type of free living nitrogen fixers or=
 endomycorrhizal species then likewise I can apply spores of those species =
to the soil. Some of these bacterial types are likely contained in compost =
tea but this is a totally different game than the home grower or farmer usi=
ng ACT for the shotgun approach.
>
> That's my take anyway.
>
> Salutations,
> Tim
>
> --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "evanfolds" <evan_at_> wrote:
> >
> > Tad, I agree with you. IN NO WAY am I trying to undermine the importanc=
e and relevance of working with a microscope. It is vital. I'm simply tryin=
g to point out exactly what you stated: "...frankly I don't know what all t=
he different species and sub-species do in the rhizosphere anyway."
> >
> > That's it. We don't know. It is my opinion that we need to couple what =
we are seeing under a scope directly with how it works with growing plants.=
 Nobody to my knowledge is doing this.
> >
> > I also think we need to entertain a seperate metric of "microbial stren=
gth" into our analysis here. Without accounting for the reletaive strength =
of the same microbe from different sources, we are acting as if they are al=
l the same. This may make testing easier, but it does no justice to the end=
 result we all seek --> healthy biologically active soil that grows nutrien=
t dense plants without pest & disease.
> >
> > I too am appreciateive of being part of this group...peace & light
> >
> > evan
> > www.VortexBrewer.com
> >
> >
> > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "Tad" <tadhussey_at_> wrote:
> > >
> > > Evan and Tim,
> > >
> > > This discussion jumps around quite a bit, but I wanted to chime in on=
 a few things.
> > >
> > > First of all, I think the importance of testing is largely understate=
d and many commercial manufacturers of brewers don't do proper testing befo=
re selling their brewers or making claims as to efficacy. One SFI test is =
not sufficient in my opinion, but is a good starting point. Successive mic=
roscope work is better, even if it is qualitative in nature.
> > >
> > > Ethan, you talk about "true diversity" as something we cannot see or =
understand without DNA testing. I have to agree with Tim here in that dire=
ct microscopy is really the most effective methodology we have for evaluati=
ng microbial teas and extracts at this time. DNA testing would really not =
give me much more information and is not realistic, as each brew would be d=
ifferent, and frankly I don't know what all the different species and sub-s=
pecies do in the rhizosphere anyway.
> > >
> > > However, I can tell the difference better a ciliate and a flagellate.=
  I can see that they're both present in my tea and in good ratios. I can =
see different morphology in the bacteria and whether it's motile or forming=
 large areas on the slide of biomass. This is the diversity I'm talking ab=
out. It gives me data that I can then use to determine the quality of my p=
roduct.
> > >
> > > Every brew I've ever taken for longer than a few days lacks this dive=
rsity. DNA testing is not going to show anything surprising in this regard=
. If I'm unable to find fungal hyphae through direct microscopy, it's not =
going to magically show up through other means of testing.
> > >
> > > Our solution to this issue was to have hydro shops brew 1-2 times a w=
eek, and customers just knew that if they wanted ACT, they would have to co=
me in on a Weds or a Saturday and those would be the days it's available fo=
r purchase.
> > >
> > > Some manufacturers claim you can refrigerate their tea or store it fo=
r a period of time. I find this irresponsible and have yet to see anyone p=
rovide data to show otherwise. And personally, I don't see how they ever c=
ould. With a properly made ACT, you've created an unsustainable amount of =
aerobic microbes at it's peak (avg 24-36 hours). I don't believe there is =
a way to maintain the diversity and concentrations of organisms over time.
> > >
> > > As Tim stated, it would be relatively easy to test Evan's theory abou=
t plant available nutrients being more accessible in longer brews by just t=
esting for nutrients say at 24 hours and again a week later from the same l=
iquid, without any additions.
> > >
> > > I guess my point is that let's not throw out direct microscopy as the=
 standard to evaluating teas, just because it doesn't answer every question=
 we might have. Spend enough time behind a microscope and I think you'll f=
ind that you can learn quite a bit about how your teas change over time. F=
or instance, I can make a bacterial dominated tea, fungal dominated tea, or=
 flagellate dominated tea all from the same material, simply by adjusting t=
he length of the brewing cycle.
> > >
> > > In order for out industry to continue to grow and gain legitimacy, I =
think it's important that we move away from testimonials, quasi-science, an=
d unsubstantiated claims, and towards direct microscopy and methodology tha=
t can be replicated in a variety of environments and with different brewers=
.
> > >
> > > I think these discussions are beneficial as well. There's a lot of d=
ifferent knowledge and experience floating around in here and I'm glad to b=
e a part of the group!
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Tad
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "evanfolds" <evan_at_> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Tim, I'm not trying to overcomplicate compost tea. I'm simply tryin=
g to speak to its complexity. The reality is that the only way to illustrat=
e actual diversity is through DNA testing. I work loosely with a local lab =
who sepcializes in E.coli testing. We live at the end of the Caope Fear riv=
er in NC and there are more hogs than people in this state. They track cont=
amination sources to outbreaks in water ways and are able to reverse engine=
er where it comes from. Pretty cool. Of course, they cannot tell this witho=
ut DNA testing. That's my point. Not that you cannot get valuable informati=
on out what you are doing. That is not my point.
> > > >
> > > > Bottom line, if we assume we can get what we need from a visual obs=
ervation we end up like Justis von Liebig (the man who gave us the NPK and =
crippled agriculture forever) identifying "essential nutrients" from an ash=
ing experiment. After all, he went to his grave regretting that:
> > > >
> > > > "Unfortunately the true beauty of agriculture with its intellectual=
 and animating principles is almost unrecognized. The art of agriculture wi=
ll be lost when ignorant, unscientific and short sighted teachers persuade =
the farmer to put all his hopes in universal remedies, which don't exist in=
 nature. Following their advice, bedazzled by an ephemeral success, the far=
mer will forget the soil and lose sight of his inherent values and their in=
fluence." Source: Fauna in soil ecosystems, by Gero Benckiser (p 6)
> > > >
> > > > Now I'm not trying to compare you to von Liebig, or suggest that yo=
u are ignorant or unscientific, simply trying to illustrate the power and f=
olly of humanity when they attempt to define the natural world strictly thr=
ough visual and quantifiable means.
> > > >
> > > > evan
> > > > www.VortexBrewer.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "Tim Wilson" <thegoodjob_at_> wrot=
e:
> > > > >
> > > > > Since it is Sunday http://www.microbeorganics.com/index.html#My_D=
VD
> > > > >
> > > > > Evan; I really believe you are way over complicating the microbia=
l perspective as it relates to compost tea and extract. Of course you need =
nothing like DNA testing to see the diversity I described.
> > > > >
> > > > > There is absolutely no labelling required whatsoever to say that =
a device is capable of extracting and multiplying bacteria/archaea, protozo=
a and fungal hyphae. Where does that come from?
> > > > >
> > > > > PGPR = plant growth promoting rhizobacteria, which is what you =
have been describing. They are all over the market; some good, some not so =
good. They definitely are restricted to what they say on the label.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'll read your citation concerning humus creation re: jelly pocke=
ts but I will try to post a relatively scientific paper in the files sectio=
n here which was an eye opener for me on humus. Humus still remains undefin=
ed. [Even though some cat in New Mexico claims to create his own]
> > > > >
> > > > > Glad to hear the good DO2 rate. I suppose there is great potentia=
l for various nutrients uptaken in natural growing to be non-detectable but=
 for now I'm going to concern myself with those that can be for production =
of data if possible. My data, which you will discover by seeing my webpage =
consists of video recordings of microbial populations.
> > > > >
> > > > > Adios Amigo,
> > > > > Tim
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "evanfolds" <evan_at_> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks for your response, Tim. I have no seen your DVD, how can=
 I?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > by the way, just took a DO reading from the Vortex Brewer on a =
perpetual brew that's been spinning for over a month and it was 7.8.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regardless of how informed one is in recognizing biological div=
ersity, true diversity cannot be attained without DNA testing. That is not =
to say that it is not valuable to have scope experience in identifying diff=
erent categories of microbe, simply a statement of the obvious truth.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For instance, we get people confused about our biological produ=
cts all the time because we do not claim microbes on the label. We do this =
for two reasons. One, we don't propose we can know all the microbes in our =
biologicals. They are created on a farm that has been in the same family fo=
r 350 years and have a complexity we cannot know. Second, according to labe=
ling laws, only certain strains (Bacillus, mycchorizae) are accepted. This =
leaves people to believe they are the only ones that are important. Some on=
 this list may take issue with that, but you should deal with the general p=
ublic every day. Most people simply believe what they are told. It's the sa=
me when 99% of this country believes Miracle Gro is sufficient to maintian =
health in an ecosystem. Most of the time they don't even know what an ecosy=
stem is, they think microbes are the reason for hand sanitizer. Not trying =
to be ugly, its simply the truth. Not being able to claim biological existe=
nce on a label cripples people's ability to know about them. This has happe=
ned with "essential nutrients" with plants. Plants can use 50-60 elements d=
irectly or indirectly (microbes all of them as co-factors), yet the "expert=
s" speak of 17 at the most.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is my belief that the onset of degenerative disease in moder=
n society is a direct (with no smoking gun) result of growing plants (and m=
icrobes) for what they have to have, not what they want, or, better, what w=
e need from them.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Most importantly, however, assuming we can identify microbes, i=
s what function those microbes perform. We know very little about this cons=
idering estimates that only 1/4 of the fungal species have even been identi=
fied, for example.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Potential NEW microbe species: http://www.npr.org/2011/05/12/13=
6207874/a-new-somewhat-moldy-branch-on-the-tree-of-life
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Further, in regards to biological strength and ability, we are =
both humans. You may be a better soccer player (N cycler) and I may be a be=
tter basketball player (digester), but one cannot tell this by looking at u=
s under a microscope. If you purchase a microbe grown in a Petri dish with =
no natural stress or predator, the organism is weaker. This is another simp=
le statement of truth. They lack life experience and have not worked with o=
ther organisms. These are not tiny programed machines, they are living life=
 forms.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What are "PGPR products"?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There is even thought that certain species of microbes, outside=
 of individual ability, are "smarter" than others. Check out this article o=
n a "smart community" or vortex bacteria ;)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://www.dynamicyouth.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=
=article&id=1748:social-iq-score-of-bacteria&catid=79:research&Itemid=
=89
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It would make sense to most, I imagine, that much of the benefi=
t from microbes comes in their complexity (diversity). Meaning that often i=
t is the assistance of a microbe that has no interaction with a plant direc=
tly towards a microbe that does, that accounts for the incalculable work do=
ne by microbes for plants and Nature. To use a basketball analogy, what if =
the starter cant come out of the game and there's no 6th man? Further, what=
 if there is no trainer or assistant coach?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Consider a plant, we can grow them with ionic minerals, but we =
all know the benefit of having a microbe help.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Consider a human, there are microbes in our gut that use Yttriu=
m to help us digest our food. Yttrium has no direct use by humans that we k=
now, but if it is not found in our diet, and it is not found in most people=
's anymore, microbes cannot cycle Aluminium in our intestines. This has bee=
n implicated in Alzheimers and other degenerative diseases, especially with=
 people eating so much Al in pharmaceuticals and using it in their underarm=
s. This is the importance of using ALL elements as tools for microbes. Read=
 "Minerals for the Genetic Code", by Dr. Olree.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Nature barely ever works directly. Therefore we don't know as m=
uch as we think we know. Given this innate complexity, how is a human suppo=
sed to know how to create a proper biological inoculant? What if the coach =
(human) puts the wrong players (microbes) on the court? Five point guards c=
an't beat a well balanced basketball team, and the center must get the assi=
st from the point guard to dunk the ball.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To put it another way, to realize the importance of biological =
teamwork, what if a trapeze artist picked someone out of the crowd to catch=
 her on her pass?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Unfortunately, due to the dynamic nature of what we are discuss=
ing, there may be no way to prove the lab grown weakness hypothesis directl=
y except out of subjective experience and intuition. We can't set up an obs=
tacle course and let them run through it. :) This, of course, is what preve=
nts people from gravitating towards concepts like BioDynamics due to us bei=
ng trained to expect hard quantifiable data to even consider entertaining p=
otential truths.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Arguably, the most important aspects of living systems are unme=
asureable and unobservable.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The scientific method, while allowing us to advance as a specie=
s, cripples us. It says that a hypothesis can only be a theory and then a l=
aw if it happens the same way every time. Remember that Nature does not wor=
k this way, by design. She works in chaos and spirals. The consepquence of =
the anthropocetric concept of the scientific method, again, while not worth=
less, is making "laws" for humans that do not jive with the laws of Nature.=
 In fact, they are counterintuitive. Newton pondered gravity by getting hit=
 in the head by the apple, or so the fable goes, but we spend no time discu=
ssing how the apple got up there to begin with.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Without acknowledging the unobservable and unmeasureable life f=
orce involved in natural systems, we are only considering half the story.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In regards to the shredder part, yes, that is what I'm referrin=
g too. Read Podolinski for his descriptions of humus. He describes it as th=
e guts of microbes that form jelly pockets in the soil. becasue "plant food=
" is contained in certian zoes in the soil the plant can choose to drink or=
 eat at will depending on if the sun is out or teh time of day. When using =
soluble artificial nutrients there is no jelly pocket, "food" is found thro=
ughout teh soil and the drinking roots of plants cannot help but eat as wel=
l. This accounts for initial higher yields, but is actually only obesity. H=
is description resonates with me.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You should also read Steiner on the concept of "You are what yo=
u eat". It's easy to think of microbes cycling nutrients through their poop=
, but we again can easily oversimplify things. Some may not see the connect=
ion here, but "nutrition" is a relative thing from a non-materialistic pers=
pective: http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/NutHealth/19240731p01.html
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In the end, organic matter does not just melt. I consider micro=
bes to be responsible for ALL end results in healthy soil. Just as they are=
 for us in our gut, or worms and bacteria in theirs, or termites and fungi =
in theirs. This is why microbes are so important. They help plants, but mos=
t importantly they make plant food in the cycle of life.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If plant food is not kept in solution after being created, wher=
e does it go? I too believe that this can be documented, but it will not be=
 directly, I presume. There is a disconnect between articially created nutr=
ients and natural. For instance, I can spray a 2000ppm solution of Earth TO=
nic on a plant and it will love it. If I do the same with an artificial nut=
rient it will murder the plant. Nature has a way of balancing things that a=
 human can never know. We must be humble to this.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We have people using natural nutrients in our retail store all =
the time with an NPK that is 2-1-1 who get MUCH better results than when th=
ey uised an artifical nutrient with a 15-10-10. I'm sure everyone is aware =
on some level the difference of nutrition from Nature versus a factory.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm curious to hear the thoughts of the lab we find to this wor=
k. Are tehy set up to assay ionic minerals or biological plant food. I susp=
ect there is a difference, and maybe one we cannot detect readily.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Let me know on that DVD..
> > > > > >
> > > > > > evan
> > > > > > www.VortexBrewer.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "Tim Wilson" <thegoodjob_at_> =
wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi Evan;
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Two things jumped at me from your post;
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1/ Diversity; The type of diversity which is qualified/quanti=
fied by DNA testing is the species (genera?) difference in bacteria, archae=
a and fungi genera. The type of diversity I am talking about is bacteria/ar=
chaea, flagellates, naked amoebae, testate amoebae, ciliates, rotifers, fun=
gal hyphae. These are easily discerned microscopically; as simple as lookin=
g outdoors to see the types of animals and birds in your backyard. There ar=
e also differences which can be discerned inter species. If I see entirely =
different shapes and motility within bacterial/archaeal species I can assum=
e they are of different genera but this is not hard and fast with this grou=
p. Likewise with fungal hyphae if they grow differently, produce different =
spores and throw down septate at different distances, have different membra=
nes, etc. I can conclude they are of different genera. With flagellates, ci=
liates and amoebae it is quite simple to discern different genera visually.=
 And you don't need to know their name to know they are different. That is =
the diversity I'm looking for in a compost tea, soil or compost sample. Hav=
e you seen my DVD?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 2/ Shredders;
> > > > > > > You mention shredders as providers of plant food and I believ=
e humus creators if I'm not mistaken. I presume you are speaking of the pre=
dators like protozoa and nematodes. My understanding of how nutrients are c=
ycled to plants microbially is protozoa consume bacteria/archaea and utiliz=
e only 30 to 40 percent of the energy derived for sustenance. What they exc=
rete is the 60 to 70 percent in bioavailable (ionic form - soluble) nutrien=
ts which can be directly uptaken by plants.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I believe (as far as I know today) that the creation of humus=
 is somewhat still in unknown territory but I had not heard the hypothesis =
of it being formed from the guts of bacteria (microbes). There are two (tha=
t I know of) schools of thought on what comprises humus as to whether the o=
rganic material is no longer recognizeable and it is a unique molecular str=
ucture (humic polymers or covalent bonded) OR where some aspect of the orig=
inating organic matter is detectable and it forms a molecular aggregate str=
ucture (supramolecular aggregates or non-covalent bonded).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As we have discussed, it is my thought that if a compost tea =
would 'hold' nutrients in solution as a factor of predation having taken pl=
ace, then it would seem a perpetual brew would make better sense. If these =
nutrients are in solution, it should be relatively easy to detect them thro=
ugh 'dependable' laboratory testing. I do believe the testing would need to=
 be done without any extraction processes but that is my uneducated hypothe=
sis.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The specialty or talented bacteria which you mentioned may ha=
ve someplace in compost tea but presently I see them more as something whic=
h may be specifically fermented or purchased ready to use, as is much the c=
ase with the PGPR products.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Salutations,
> > > > > > > Tim
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "evanfolds" <evan_at_> wrote=
:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sorry for the product plug, Tim, hard to get the point acro=
ss otherwise.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > We have tracked DO in the past with a perpetual brew, but n=
othing I can regurgitate. I have tasked my guys to track that with a fresh =
brew starting the beginning of next week along with what we are adding dail=
y for reference and will report back.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I will admit that the quality of the microbe, and possibly =
the diversity, is compromised when brewing perpetually. Who's determining A=
CTUAL diversity anyway wihtout DNA testing? However, that is of relative im=
portance. Put it this way, ANY living solution is better than none as long =
as it is not aerobic. In other words, when people take a perpetual brew fro=
m a garden store they cannot buy the equivalant from a shelf.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Also, I realize that this is a compost tea forum mostly int=
erested in the biological aspects of living solutions, and rightfully so. B=
ut the aspect of compsot tea that gets perpetually glossed over is the fact=
 that microbes make perfect plant food. What I think is happening over time=
 is that the longer you brew the more plant food you have.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Tim, you reference that you think ciliates are nutrient cyc=
lers, and I would agree. I would argue that ALL microbes are nutrient cycle=
rs in their own right. The shredders spill the guts of bacteria and create =
humus, or plant food. Arguably, the more shredding you have going on, the m=
ore plant food you have. The people in the testimonial video may simply be =
reacting to the perfect plant food beenfit, not the biological influence. I=
 like to think the living microbes have a direct influence, but how can one=
 know for sure?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It all depends on the application. For instance, an indoor =
grower who is planning on throwing his potting soil away in 3-4 months is n=
ot necessarily trying to establish a soil food web in his container. His in=
terests may be more on the plant food emphasis, therefore perpetual brewing=
 makes more sense to him. We have many growers who keep perpetual brews goi=
ng and use on every watering.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In another context there may be a farmer who is interested =
in the long term biological balance in his soil who may benefit more by bat=
ch brewing and ensuring the sanctity of the microbes involved.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The point is, we don't know for sure.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The future is defining applications and the need for certai=
n microbes in those applications, then establishing food sources and brew t=
imes that encourage those microbes needed most effectively. This research h=
as not been done, and is barely even discussed.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Without a baseline of what soil "should" be, we're pretty m=
uch shooting in the dark. However, there are certain applications that warr=
ant progress. I saw the other day a reference from a Australian farmer who =
discovered that there is actually a bacteria responsible for frost damage i=
n plants. In other words, its not the temperature, but an excretion on the =
leaf surface by a certain microbe that makes the plants vulnerable and crst=
alizes the moisture. What if we could determine a predator for this microbe=
 and use a food source and brew time that encouraged it? The mind races at =
the potetnial applications, but this is the future.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > There are also variables involved that throw a monkey wrenc=
h into these ideas. For example, the strength of microbes. We discuss micro=
bes as if they are all the same, but this is not true. Keep in mind that yo=
u cannot see biological strength under a microscope. In other words, a lab =
analysis can only get you so far in regards to how the specific microbe inf=
luences growing plants. I don't know of any labs connecting biological assa=
ys and sourcews with plant growth...and this is the most important thing! =
 
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > One way to think about this is biodynamics. In the biodynam=
ic method compost is not turned. In other words, the microbe is challenged =
to operate in an aerobic/anaerobic capacity, as Dr. Ingham referenced in a =
post a couple of weeks ago. The result is that the mcirobes are challenged =
more, they develop more life experince, so to speak. If you coddle your chi=
ldren are they going to end up as accomplsihed adults? You get the idea.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Anyway, food for thought. When we get some results I'll rep=
ort back...peace
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > evan
> > > > > > > > www.VortexBrewer.com
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "Tim Wilson" <thegoodjo=
b_at_> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I was hoping you would speak up on this subject Evan. I'd=
 be more interested in the tracked dissolved oxygen than the testimonials (=
BTW I don't know if anyone told you advertising is on Sundays only) I do be=
lieve that a semi-perpetual brew is possible but do not know whether it is =
more beneficial than starting a brew over. Some of the longterm brews I've =
carried out have wound up with a predominence of ciliates and/or fungal hyp=
hae quite devoured by bacteria.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If you have tracked the microbial development and/or DO2 =
I'd be interested in hearing/seeing.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I was asked recently to put on a seminar for a college gr=
owing program and they did not have a brewer. I threw together a 5 gallon a=
irlift brewer to donate, using the 2 CFM Hailea. Because of time constraint=
s we started the brew at my place so it would be on about 36 hours for the =
seminar. I checked the brew at 11 hours and it blew my mind. It was complet=
e. Bacteria/archaea, flagellates & mega fungal hyphae. The DO2 was 8.2 ppm.=
 Next morning shut it down, drove about 2 hours, then started the brew back=
 up again. I did not take the O2 meter but samples under the scope at 36 to=
 40 hours were beginning to show chewed down hyphae and quite an abundance =
of ciliates and less flagellates. Now does that mean the ACT is not as func=
tional? I don't know. But it was on its way to being overun by ciliates. We=
've been told by some in the field, this is a bad sign. I believe ciliates =
cycle nutrients but I think the lack of diversity is not great.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On an upnote; What an incredible little brewer I stumbled=
 on.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > *Evan; I'm working on the testing thing.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Salutations,
> > > > > > > > > Tim
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "evanfolds" <evan_at_> w=
rote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > We have been brewing perpetually for many years using a=
 Vortex Brewer. Here is a video of many happy customers using compost tea c=
reated in this way: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fNWyTqUUN0
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > it is important to refresh teh solution at least once p=
er week. In other words, if you are distributing 10 gallons a wekk using a =
60 gallon unit the inputs compound on themselves. We suggest adding a certi=
an amoutn of input for every 5 gallons of water added to the unit. It works=
 great.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > This not only makes sense on a convenience level, but a=
lso on a "plant food" level. We all know microbes make perfect plant food. =
When attaining a shredder dominance after 48 hours it makes sense that this=
 process creates more plant food the longer the tea is brewed. After all, t=
he guts of bacteria make up humus, i.e. plant food.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > We are not suggesting that this provides a replicable b=
iological product, only that it is a living solution that cannot be purtcha=
sed from a shelf. Depending on the application, the plant food aspect may b=
e more important than the biological aspect. Consider container gardening o=
r indoor gardening where the goal is not necessarily to establish an operat=
ing soil food web.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > We have distributed compost tea from a Vortex Brewer to=
 every gardening situation imagineable over the last 5-6 years, sometimes w=
ith a brew that has been spinning for up to 6 months without cleaning the u=
nit, and never have we had a negative response.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I would not receommend using other compost tea units in=
 this capacity, not because it will not work, but becasue I have not person=
ally tested it. There is still MUCH work to do to determine the potentials =
of compost tea, but perpetual brewing sure makes sense from our perspective=
.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Evan
> > > > > > > > > > www.VortexBrewer.com
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "RTS Friction - Car=
ruthers" <home_at_> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > It would seem you run the risk of outside contaminati=
on if you continue to use your base stock, much the same as using your yeas=
t again and again in beer making. Look forward to other comments good quest=
ion.
> > > > > > > > > > > If you trail through the archives you will see the di=
scussions on adding extra food/nutrient, many members believe it is not nec=
essary. Thanks to good advice I now rely on the release of nutrients in the=
 compost/vermicast to multiply the MO's, I do add a little barley malt if u=
sing the tea for getting the compost heap going or doing a lawn drench.
> > > > > > > > > > > Ian C
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > > > > From: Paul M Moriarty To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.c=
om
> > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 9:03 PM
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > New guy here. I've searched through the archives an=
d haven't found an answer to my question. Hopefully, one of you can help me=
 out.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Is it possible to just keep a batch of tea going by=
, draining off 1/2 the tea and replacing with water & food as one would wit=
h a sourdough starter, or is it necessary to replenish the castings as well=
? As an urban farmer, I'm trying to get as much mileage out of my castings =
as possible.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>




Received on Fri Jul 01 2011 - 10:53:16 EDT

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