True enough, the industry has corrupted the phrase. (Just like many call ac=
tinobacteria, actinomycetes, and don't acknowledge archaea, etc.)
My brewer operates on the principal of an air lift bioreactor.
I agree that EM fermentations are not ideal to all situations but it sure w=
orked applied like this for me. Better yet I reckon to get a good mushroom =
stock growing with one's crops if it suits the farming technique (e.g. no t=
ill)
I like to see the microbial groups sort out the pH balance if possible (fun=
gi:bacteria - acid:alkaline generally). It has always happened for me.
http://www-bioc.rice.edu/bios576/nih_bioreactor/NDL_Bioreactor%20Page.htm#f=
erment
http://biotech.about.com/od/glossary/g/Fermentation.htm
Tim
--- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "mikethewormguy" <mikethewormguy_at_...> w=
rote:
>
>
>
> Tim,
>
> I think it is a matter of accepted convention, within a specific context,=
as to what language is used. In other words, it depends on where you were =
schooled and what industries you worked.
>
> In the commercial industrial microbially world when they grow out microbe=
s, the process is called fermentation. The device used is called a ferment=
or or biofermentor.
>
> There are two phases for fermentation, solid and liquid. Thus you have li=
quid state fermentations and solid state fermentations.
>
> From this context, the EM process would be liquid phase anaerobic ferment=
ation.
>
> So there is no right or wrong. It is a matter of what you words you are u=
se to using.
>
> The ACT folks use the word 'fermentation' in a different way than folks t=
hat work in industrial fermentation. This how they were taught.
>
> In regard to using EM ferment liquid, as a stubble buster, I would agree =
that there is a place this liquid. But the microbes in this blend are not t=
he optimal choice. The fungi have the enzyme systems that are better suite=
d for stubble busting.
>
> I have read Doud's work concerning on-farm production of endomycorrhizal =
microbes using nurse plants. It is pretty cool stuff.
>
> At the end of the day, folks will continue to use the bio-tools that work=
s for their soil and crop, no matter what are called.
>
> Happy Holidays to All !!!!
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "Tim Wilson" <thegoodjob_at_> wrote:
> >
> > I have consulted with farms of 4000 acres, 1700 acres, and 1200 acres, =
which all use ACT. I know that by some standards, these are small but I thi=
nk they pass as large scale ag.
> >
> > ACT is absolutely not a fermentation process. (At least not in my vocab=
ulary) Neither is Liquid Compost Extract (LCE). There are fermentations lik=
e EM which serve great purpose in horticulture. I have found EM fermentatio=
ns to be very good for degrading crop residue/dead roots, etc.
> >
> > When I ferment EM I use a pH meter to evaluate when the fermentation is=
complete but have not added anything in an attempt to adjust the pH. I'll =
have to inquire at the EM plants to see if they adjust the pH in their big =
vats.
> >
> > One can easily ad Trichoderma to a brew at the onset to sprout out the =
spores. I've got some growing in my lab right now. If one is going to use T=
richoderma, better (IMO) to use it not combined with endomycorrhizal produc=
ts as it can inhibit endomycorrhizal infection. Most concoctions with both =
usually have an enormous number of Trichoderma spores compared to very few =
endomycorrhizal spores, giving the Trich a further leg up. Better to choose=
separate species wisely based on crops grown. One can use Trich quite effe=
ctively without endomyc or use endomyc and then Trich later if encountering=
fungal pathogens. If you decide on endomycorrhizal use it at seeding/plant=
ing time. Endomyc spores do not sprout in ACT.
> >
> > The N fixers, microbial inoculants etc. are a dime a dozen in bottles w=
ith different labels all over the place. I do not include these in the same=
class as ACT, although ACT contains some of these bacterial types. These c=
an be very useful in horticulture but it may not be the greatest idea to du=
mp them into a brew. To find the best, just see what the ingredients are, i=
ncluding microbial counts per volume and get the best bang for your buck.
> >
> > Various endomycorrhizal fungi species provide nitrogen to root systems =
if this is what is meant by fungal N fixers. A very good source of informat=
ion on this subject is David D Douds Jr.
> >
> > I've emailed the source of the newsletter requesting supportive data.
> >
> > Tim
> >
> > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "mikethewormguy" <mikethewormguy_at_> =
wrote:
> > >
> > > I found many of the points made in the newsletter that could be usefu=
l, more for large scale ag, than gardening.
> > >
> > > In commercial fermentations, adjusting the pH to keep in within a spe=
cific range is standard procedure. I suspect that most compost brewers do =
not have a the controls and metering pump to make pH adjustment effective t=
ool. Thus I would not recommend the practice for brewers.
> > >
> > > The use of cellulose, hemicellulose, and lignin degraders in stubble =
breakdown is a great application for extracts. Having some level of trichod=
erma in the extract liquid is key.
> > >
> > > There are a few species of free-living nitrogen fixers that lend them=
selves to mass fermentation. Freeze-drying is an effective manner to keep =
the microbes dormant.
> > >
> > > Working in large scale ag, I agree with Stephen, that there are some =
specific applications for specific microbial groups that make sense. To mak=
e this happen, you either need a pre-made product and/or solid experience i=
n specialty compost making. You need to understand the wee beasties and wh=
at makes them happy and sad..........
> > >
> > > My 3 cents.....
> > >
> > > Happy Holidays !
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Steyn" <ssteyn_at_> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Tim;
> > > >
> > > > I note your reservations about Graeme Saits article. I think your p=
oints are
> > > > valid.
> > > >
> > > > I have never found anything that Sait has written or said to be bas=
ed on
> > > > poor research. In fact much of the information he provides is cutti=
ng edge.
> > > > He seems to scour the globe ( or academic literature) for informati=
on.
> > > >
> > > > He provides a new and different way of addressing problems which ar=
e
> > > > typically associated with ACT. Freeze dried biology. Tried and test=
ed foods
> > > > and with quality determined by him. Nitrogen fixing bacteria. Stubb=
le
> > > > digesting fungi. These are problems of large scale agriculture (and=
I
> > > > suppose to gardening but probably to a lesser extent). We try to us=
e ACT and
> > > > hope that it has the ingredients to address problems we think we ma=
y have.
> > > > He tries to brew ACT with remedies for specific problems. He produc=
es his
> > > > freeze dried inoculum so it is probably produced specifically for b=
reaking
> > > > down straw. This we know is easy enough to do. Producing nitrogen f=
ixing
> > > > fungi I would assume is more complex.
> > > >
> > > > I think we can benefit from the article.
> > > >
> > > > Maybe it gives you some ideas too...
> > > >
> > > > SS
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com [mailto:compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.c=
om] On
> > > > Behalf Of Tim Wilson
> > > > Sent: 18 December 2011 22:27
> > > > To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
> > > > Subject: [compost_tea] Re: Sustainable Farming News & Biological Ag=
riculture
> > > > Information. > Blog Archive > 8 Essentials for Successful Microbe B=
rewing
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi Stephen,
> > > >
> > > > People can try what they wish but I don't like to mess around with =
adjusting
> > > > pH in a brew as it just throws things out of balance (IMO).
> > > >
> > > > Do these people supply any data or do they do any research? Their s=
tatement
> > > > that molasses selects for a limited number of bacterial species see=
ms to
> > > > indicate a lack of time looking down a microscope tube. That molass=
es feeds
> > > > only bacteria is old information which was started 'I don't know wh=
ere'.
> > > > Black strap molasses feeds both bacteria/archaea and fungi equally =
well, in
> > > > my experience. Paul Stamets uses molasses to grow out fungal hyphae=
.
> > > >
> > > > [as a side note, I believe that it has yet to be proven that the fu=
ngi grown
> > > > out in ACT is the same type of fungi we refer to when we speak of f=
ungal
> > > > dominated soils. I'm not saying that the fungi grown in ACT does no=
t
> > > > contribute to the health of soil, just that I've not seen supportiv=
e data
> > > > that the species of fungi grown in ACT have a direct role in nutrie=
nt
> > > > delivery to the roots of plants similar to endomycorrhizal fungi. I=
am
> > > > hopeful of related research)
> > > >
> > > > I do not usually have trouble extracting and growing fungi in an ef=
ficient
> > > > brewer using [vermi]compost which has fungi in it. The time it take=
s usually
> > > > ranges from 10 to 24 hours depending on how active the [vermi]compo=
st is.
> > > >
> > > > Here is my data from two brews made with only 2.38% vermicompost mi=
xed with
> > > > 0.50% black strap molasses. Judge for yourself.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZz7vnaX2S8
> > > > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZz7vnaX2S8&feature=context&con=
text=C3016b7e
> > > > ADOEgsToPDskJTsOMGQcbl821vfr-OSCGP>
> > > > &feature=context&context=C3016b7eADOEgsToPDskJTsOMGQcbl821vfr-O=
SCGP
> > > >
> > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR7ZTrZQuFg
> > > > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR7ZTrZQuFg&feature=context&con=
text=C3016b7e
> > > > ADOEgsToPDskJTsOMGQcbl821vfr-OSCGP>
> > > > &feature=context&context=C3016b7eADOEgsToPDskJTsOMGQcbl821vfr-O=
SCGP
> > > >
> > > > Tim
> > > >
> > > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com <mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroup=
s.com> ,
> > > > "Stephen Steyn" <ssteyn_at_> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear fellow composters:
> > > > >
> > > > > Received this via my subscription to Graeme Sait's site. I hope y=
ou find
> > > > it
> > > > > as interesting as I did. The idea of buffering the ACT to differe=
nt pHs
> > > > > depending on whether you wanted bacterial or fungal dominance see=
ms a good
> > > > > one.
> > > > >
> > > > > SS
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > http://www.nutri-tech.com.au/blog/2011/12/8-essentials-for-microbe-=
brewing/
> > > > >
> > > > > -- Shared using Google Toolbar
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Received on Mon Dec 19 2011 - 15:29:08 EST