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[compost_tea] Fw: NOSB minutes on Compost Tea
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Teuton" <fteuton@sympatico.ca>
To: "Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group"
<SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 6:21 PM
Subject: NOSB minutes on Compost Tea
> Excerpts from:
>
> http://www.ams.usda.gov/nosb/OctoberNOSBTranscript101902.pdf
>
> MR. BANDELE: Okay, as far as the other 22
> agenda items are concerned, next is the compost tea. I 23
> think Barbara mentioned this morning how there are 24
> certain things that just keep coming back because 1
> people want the right answer, -- that's true. 2
> (Laughter) 3
> MR. BANDELE: I don't want to go into a long 4
> discussion about the reasons why the committee strongly 5
> feels that we need to really not give up on this 6
> compost tea issue. The decision, as I understand it, 7
> was not based on scientific data -- at least scientific 8
> data that many of us have seen. So what I'll propose 9
> tomorrow as an action item is to reactivate the compost 10
> task force with the specific charge to look at the 11
> compost tea issue and I'm going to recommend that Eric 12
> Sideman (ph) who shared the task force will serve as 13
> co-chair along with Dennis Holbrook. So I'll reserve 14
> that until tomorrow. 15
> CHAIRPERSON CARTER: Okay, Rose. 16
> MS. KOENIG: And just for clarification, I 17
> guess for Richard and Barbara maybe it'll be a little 18
> bit more palatable. Some of the discussion is that -- 19
> that according to what is stated on the website, it 20
> just nullifies the use of any kind of compost tea and 21
> it's argued in the field that many compost tea products 22
> don't use manure. And so we want to make sure that the 23
> compost task force looks at this again, and at least 24
> breaks out the products that would not, in the compost 1
> -- they would like to examine all the types of products 2
> that would fit within that category, and see if they at 3
> least could not be looked at separate entities, because 4
> there may be some that are -- it's such a general term 5
> within the field, that many of them may not even 6
> include manure products, and those especially may not 7
> have a problem. That's the background. 8
> CHAIRPERSON CARTER: So it's not exactly 9
> asking the same question. 10
> MS. KOENIG: No, it's not. 11
> CHAIRPERSON CARTER: It's a new compost tea. 12
> It's compost coffee. 13
> MR. BANDELE: I just have a question at this 14
> point. I think in one of my discussions with Emily, I 15
> think she pointed out that there were several compost 16
> tea products that are on recertified at this time. 17
> What would be the state of ... 18
> (several speak at once.) 19
> MR. BANDELE: No I said ... I had a couple 20
> conversations with Emily, and she stated that there are 21
> a few compost tea formulations that are almost approved 22
> at this time. What would be the status of those that 23
> have ... approval? 24
> MR. MATHEWS: They're not approved. 1
> MS. KOENIG: And that was where some of the 2
> question lies, because on some products, as I 3
> understand, they don't even have -- they just have a 4
> plant component, that the compost is actually made out 5
> of a plant with no -- 6
> CHAIRPERSON CARTER: Okay, then -- Mark and 7
> then Barbara. 8
> MR. KING: Well, and Barb may go into this, 9
> but I guess one of the things that -- and not that I'm 10
> a regulatory reviewer -- but compost is a process, and 11
> I think that when you put that word in any product, 12
> that you lend yourself to certain things, shall we say. 13
> So -- and so -- go ahead. 14
> MS. ROBINSON: I just want to say it's not -- 15
> it's not just -- you focus on manure and that's -- that 16
> is an issue, but manure is narrowing the issue. The 17
> issue is really pathogens. It's not whether -- and 18
> pathogens can be caused -- I'm no scientist, but my 19
> understanding is pathogens are not limited just to 20
> manure. So that's part of the issue. Now, I also 21
> thought that we had decided to tell people that you had 22
> to treat compost tea like raw manure. So we're not 23
> saying you can't use it, we're saying you've got to use 24
> it with those restrictions in terms of time before you 1
> apply and harvest from the ground. 2
> MR. MATHEWS: That's correct, that's what we 3
> did say. 4
> PARTICIPANT: ... tea ... 5
> MR. MATHEWS: Yes, that's the other thing. 6
> Don't call it compost tea. 7
> MR. MATHEWS: Plant-based foliar spray. 8
> MS. ROBINSON: I mean at the end of the day, 9
> see you've got to come back to 205203(C). I can do 10
> that too, Rick. Which says that you can't -- which 11
> says that no producer should apply things or do things 12
> to the soil that da-da-da. So that's the binding 13
> constraint that producers operate under. We don't 14
> really care where it's coming from, but you can't 15
> contaminate the soil or cause increase in pathogens and 16
> that sort of thing. 17
> MR. MATHEWS: Or a food safety crisis. 18
> MS. ROBINSON: Right. 19
> MR. MATHEWS: Which kills -- 20
> MS. ROBINSON: Or a food safety crisis which 21
> would cause devastation in the program overall. This 22
> is not a food safety program, and we aren't going 23
> there. 24
> CHAIRPERSON CARTER: Emily. 1
> MS. BROWNROSEN: So let me get this straight. 2
> So you're saying it's not allowed because it doesn't 3
> meet 203(C). Now our position has been that the 4
> compost we review meet the regulation as written for 5
> compost, and we require pathogen testing, and we say 6
> they do meet 203(C) on the terms of contaminating the 7
> crops with pathogens. In order to be on the list they 8
> have to have pathogen testing and they have to be 9
> composed and reach the temperature and turned five 10
> times, and et cetera, the whole nine yards. So when 11
> the guidance says it's not eligible to meet 203(C), is 12
> that what you meant? Or do you mean to say that it 13
> must meet 203(C) to be eligible to be compost tea? Am 14
> I talking too fast? 15
> MR. MATHEWS: We have said no to compost tea. 16
> MS. BROWNROSEN: Right. 17
> MR. MATHEWS: If the Board wants to 18
> reactivate it -- task force, and come back with 19
> additional information, we'll be glad to review it. 20
> MS. BROWNROSEN: Okay, because I just thought 21
> I heard you say in September -- in September there was 22
> some -- Barbara mentioned, I believe, that if they had 23
> pathogen testing, that wouldn't be a problem, or if 24
> were treated like raw manure it wouldn't be a problem. 1
> MR. MATHEWS: I think she just told you not 2
> to call it compost tea. 3
> MS. ROBINSON: Don't call it compost tea. 4
> The problem is that there are people -- 5
> CHAIRPERSON CARTER: Use the mike. 6
> MS. ROBINSON: The problem is that we know 7
> that there could be an inappropriate or an 8
> indiscriminate use, or somebody's not paying any 9
> attention, and what we wanted to get -- the point we 10
> wanted to get across to people is it doesn't matter 11
> what you call it, but you can't contaminate the soil or 12
> the food. I don't care if you call it marshmallows. I 13
> mean it doesn't matter. A soil amendment. It's a soil 14
> amendment. 15
> MR. MATHEWS: We have said that it could be 16
> used in the same way that you would raw manure. But 17
> what you have to -- but part of the problem that we 18
> have is that for every farmer who is using a 19
> manufactured product that went through a real, rigorous 20
> process that guaranteed not to be a problem, there's 21
> probably a hundred of them out there making it in their 22
> own back yard, who are not going through that rigorous 23
> testing, and that are the ones who could lead to food 24
> safety crisis, and one we want to protect you from. 1
> MS. ROBINSON: The only way that we can give 2
> certifying agents the ability to ask the questions and 3
> enforce the regulations is to say it like this, and 4
> basically say -- what we're saying to certifying agents 5
> is you have every right to expect that this stuff is 6
> being -- whatever it is -- that it's being made 7
> appropriately and applied appropriately. That if there 8
> are questions in your mind, it should be tested -- that 9
> sort of thing. Because -- 10
> MS. BROWNROSEN: But they do have the ability 11
> to do that? 12
> MS. ROBINSON: Yes, certifying agents have 13
> that right. They have that ability. Do they not? 14
> CHAIRPERSON CARTER: Okay, sounds like a task 15
> force issue. Marty, did you have something you needed 16
> to add? You were pacing -- 17
> MR. MESH: No, I'll wait for the task force. 18
>
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