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RES: [compost_tea] Re: Correction on Soil Analysis



Hi Jose, 

You wrote "I believe that at this point the audience is nauseated 
with this subject".

Fine. You have your point of view and I have mine. Let's leave it at 
that and let the audience decide.

Regards, 

Elprune 

--- In compost_tea@yahoogroups.com, "Jose Luiz M Garcia" 
<gingerjo@t...> wrote:
> 
> Hi ElPrune,
> 
> This is a Compost Tea list an not a Soil Chemistry list.
> I believe that at this point the audience is nauseated with this
> subject. It took a while for you to respond so it is legitimate to
> think that you really know nothing about this subject and went for

> help with someone else. You should try to look for help with 
> a better person next time.
> Which one is more soluble Calcite or Dolomite ?
> Then how come Mag leaves before Calcium ?.
> May I ask what is your background in Soil Chemistry ?.
> Do I offend you if I ask what are your credentials because
> then it will be a never ending discussion ?.
> Do you agree if we take a referee to this contest ?
> My credentials are a Master's Degree in Horticulture from MSU.
> A grower for the last twenty two years. Have taken Kinsey's courses.
> Organic grower for the last 5 years. Have taken Elaine's CT class.
> Interested in Compost Tea. Build first CT brewer in Brazil .
> 
> Number 1 - For your statement "that the order of cations adsorption 
> to the clay is the following : H+, Na+, K+, Ca++, Mg++" is False.
> See above . Which one is more soluble calcite or dolomite ?
> 
> (1) Magnesium is released before calcium. In this case, calcium 
> replaces the other cations, it's not getting replaced by itself.
> Chemical nonsense.
> 
> (2) Calcium will increase.
> Non sense
> 
> You fail to take into account that the magnitude of the charge is 
> not the only consideration. The SIZE of the ion also determines the 
> strength of attraction between cations and soil particles.
> --------------
> Elprune you must convince Dolomite to perform as you say.
> Because this is not what we see in practice in real life.
> I am talking about real life. Maybe the person that have told you 
that
> is not aware that calcite is more soluble than dolomite.
> If the things would perform as you say then Dolomite should be more
> soluble than Calcite. We all know that this is not true.
> Would you need another week to respond that ?
> ----------------
> 
> The calcium displaces the sodium and THEN the sulphate combines 
with 
> the sodium and is leached out. 
> 
> Number 2 - Your statement "if they in fact grow more that would be 
a 
> great chance to cut them and make a nice mulching".
> 
> They will need to be composted first to kill any seeds or you will 
> end up with a worse problem than you started with. 
> Have you ever heard about light being necessary for weed 
germination ?.
> With a mulching on top of the soil how can the weeds germinate ?
> Are you a grower ? No grower would ever make such a dummy statement
> like that.
> 
> Number 3 - Adding Phosphorous is one of the most expensive 
> fertilizer elements there are. Very impractical. 
>  Have you ever heard about Rock Phosphate ?
> 
> Number 4 - Calcium will not leave. See Number 1.
> B.S.
> 
> Number 5 - Over time, calcium will build up in the soil from 
> irrigation water. No additional calcium would be needed.
> B.S. That will not happen.
> 
> If the soil analysis is too costly, imagine how much it will cost 
to 
> make and spray CT, add Phosphorous and Gypsum.
> This you will have to ask the Project leader, i.e. Merla .
> She just wanted a solution for the problem. I gave her. 
> My solution costs less than irrigation that you have suggested.
> 
> Aside from planting ground cover and irrigating as too expensive, 
> then using weed cloth could be another alternative.
> 
> Nice try, but I HAVE done my homework.
> ------------------
> 
> I disagree you have done nothing but antagonize all the time.
> Next time get the help from someone better than the fellow that
> has helped you this time.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Jose
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> --- In compost_tea@yahoogroups.com, "Jose Luiz M Garcia" 
> <gingerjo@t...> wrote:
> > I believe that you have to review your soil chemistry
> > concepts as you don't seem to have a clear cut picture
> > of what you talking about.
> > 
> > Number 1 - For your statement that :
> > " Gypsum is used to reduce sodium levels in soils 
> > where excess sodium is present".
> > You are partially correct BUT the order of cations adsorption 
> > to the clay is the following : H+, Na+, K+, Ca++, Mg++
> > That means that anion SO4-- from Gypsum will remove
> > preferably H+, then Na+, then K+ and so on.
> > Sulphate (SO4--) will remove basically every cations but
> > the order of preference will be the above.
> > It does not remove only Sodium (Na+) leaving everything else 
> behind.
> > No !!! Everything will go out. This aspect is facilitated by the
> > flocculation
> > (Opening) capacity of the Calcium contained in the Gypsum.
> > As the soil opens by flocculation of the clay myceles everything 
> having
> > a
> > positive charge will attach to sulphate and will leave the soil.
> > So what you just said is a half truth.
> > 
> > Number 2 - " germination of 
> > weed seeds can greatly be reduced." ( by mulching )
> > You sound like you did not read entirely my previous message.
> > Steve Diver have said that applying CT to the weeds will make them
> > grow more exuberant  which I do agree. But I have already said 
that
> > if they in fact grow more that would be a great chance to cut 
them 
> and 
> > make a nice mulching.
> > 
> > Number 3 - 
> > " As far as the soil goes, if you add phosphorous and levels 
> become 
> > too high, you risk tying up other nutrients "
> > 
> > Did I ever suggested to add phosphorus so that the levels will 
> became
> > TOO high ?
> > 
> > No, what I have just said is that ALL the samples have low 
> phosphorus 
> > AVAILABILITY so either you add P or you make it soluble working 
> the soil
> > biology. Do you know any other way ? Please let me know because I 
> don't.
> > 
> > Number 4 -
> > " If you add gypsum, you are adding more calcium and sulphur. 
> Calcium 
> > interferes with magnesium nutrtion." 
> > 
> > Probably you are not aware of Dr Albrecht's concepts to soil 
> chemistry.
> > If you were, you would know that there is only one instance that 
> gypsum
> > is recommended and that is when you have around 60% of the base
> > saturation
> > filled with Calcium.
> > Do you know why ? Probably not.
> > That is because whenever you apply Gypsum, you paradoxically loose
> > calcium so that at the end you end up with less calcium than when 
> you
> > started. Check that out.
> > You apply gypsum and the soils opens. Everything leaves ( not only
> > Sodium as you think) including calcium and the soils tights up 
> again,
> > but if you have enough
> > calcium that retightening would happen that much.
> > All the 4 samples had calcium above 60% in the base saturation.
> > % of Base Saturation for Calcium
> >   Ca          70.6                    62.3                 72.5
> > 69.5
> > 
> > Do you see any sample bellow 60% in those figures ?
> > Some of them I dare to say have already TOO much calcium and that
> > already is interfering with Magnesium so taking out some calcium 
> seems
> > like a good idea.
> > 
> > Number 5-
> > " Calcium is present in nearly all  irrigation water".
> > 
> > We have two aspects here.
> > A- That is again a half truth presented to this road side weed 
> problem.
> >      It is true that irrigation water contains calcium BUT not in 
> the
> > quantity
> >      and in the form that soil needs it, otherwise we would not 
> see a
> >     generalized lack of calcium throughout the world ( USA 
> included ).
> > I have seen soils in Texas that have so much calcium that you 
> actually
> > see
> > little white stones and the irrigation water has so much calcium 
> that
> > every irrigation drip leaves a white halo around the water bulb  
> but yet
> > the plants suffers from calcium deficiency.
> > So that responds to you above remarks.
> > B - Are you suggesting irrigating the road side plots of all USA 
> and
> > when
> >      project lider is worried about the cost of soil analysis ?
> >      If you ever get to be the Secretary of Agriculture of the USA
> > please let me know
> >      in advance because then irrigation might become a very good
> > business.
> > 
> > Finally I did not quite understand what was your practical 
> suggestions
> > to this
> > project. What should Merla do ? Leave as it is . Do nothing.
> > 
> > I said put P according to the need, put Gypsum ( also to the 
need )
> > and apply Compost Tea. Those were my suggestions and make 
mulching.
> > 
> > What do you suggest ?
> > 
> > To my understanding your remarks were not geared by  good will and
> > the willing to help Merla but solely with the intention to 
> antagonize
> > what I have
> > said about it.
> > 
> > Please review your soil chemistry concepts before engaging 
> yourself in a
> > soil
> > chemistry contest.
> > 
> > Try again.
> > 
> > Jose
> 
> 
> 
> 
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