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RES: [compost_tea] Re: Correction on Soil Analysis
Hi Jose,
You wrote "I believe that at this point the audience is nauseated
with this subject".
Fine. You have your point of view and I have mine. Let's leave it at
that and let the audience decide.
Regards,
Elprune
--- In compost_tea@yahoogroups.com, "Jose Luiz M Garcia"
<gingerjo@t...> wrote:
>
> Hi ElPrune,
>
> This is a Compost Tea list an not a Soil Chemistry list.
> I believe that at this point the audience is nauseated with this
> subject. It took a while for you to respond so it is legitimate to
> think that you really know nothing about this subject and went for
> help with someone else. You should try to look for help with
> a better person next time.
> Which one is more soluble Calcite or Dolomite ?
> Then how come Mag leaves before Calcium ?.
> May I ask what is your background in Soil Chemistry ?.
> Do I offend you if I ask what are your credentials because
> then it will be a never ending discussion ?.
> Do you agree if we take a referee to this contest ?
> My credentials are a Master's Degree in Horticulture from MSU.
> A grower for the last twenty two years. Have taken Kinsey's courses.
> Organic grower for the last 5 years. Have taken Elaine's CT class.
> Interested in Compost Tea. Build first CT brewer in Brazil .
>
> Number 1 - For your statement "that the order of cations adsorption
> to the clay is the following : H+, Na+, K+, Ca++, Mg++" is False.
> See above . Which one is more soluble calcite or dolomite ?
>
> (1) Magnesium is released before calcium. In this case, calcium
> replaces the other cations, it's not getting replaced by itself.
> Chemical nonsense.
>
> (2) Calcium will increase.
> Non sense
>
> You fail to take into account that the magnitude of the charge is
> not the only consideration. The SIZE of the ion also determines the
> strength of attraction between cations and soil particles.
> --------------
> Elprune you must convince Dolomite to perform as you say.
> Because this is not what we see in practice in real life.
> I am talking about real life. Maybe the person that have told you
that
> is not aware that calcite is more soluble than dolomite.
> If the things would perform as you say then Dolomite should be more
> soluble than Calcite. We all know that this is not true.
> Would you need another week to respond that ?
> ----------------
>
> The calcium displaces the sodium and THEN the sulphate combines
with
> the sodium and is leached out.
>
> Number 2 - Your statement "if they in fact grow more that would be
a
> great chance to cut them and make a nice mulching".
>
> They will need to be composted first to kill any seeds or you will
> end up with a worse problem than you started with.
> Have you ever heard about light being necessary for weed
germination ?.
> With a mulching on top of the soil how can the weeds germinate ?
> Are you a grower ? No grower would ever make such a dummy statement
> like that.
>
> Number 3 - Adding Phosphorous is one of the most expensive
> fertilizer elements there are. Very impractical.
> Have you ever heard about Rock Phosphate ?
>
> Number 4 - Calcium will not leave. See Number 1.
> B.S.
>
> Number 5 - Over time, calcium will build up in the soil from
> irrigation water. No additional calcium would be needed.
> B.S. That will not happen.
>
> If the soil analysis is too costly, imagine how much it will cost
to
> make and spray CT, add Phosphorous and Gypsum.
> This you will have to ask the Project leader, i.e. Merla .
> She just wanted a solution for the problem. I gave her.
> My solution costs less than irrigation that you have suggested.
>
> Aside from planting ground cover and irrigating as too expensive,
> then using weed cloth could be another alternative.
>
> Nice try, but I HAVE done my homework.
> ------------------
>
> I disagree you have done nothing but antagonize all the time.
> Next time get the help from someone better than the fellow that
> has helped you this time.
>
> Regards
>
> Jose
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In compost_tea@yahoogroups.com, "Jose Luiz M Garcia"
> <gingerjo@t...> wrote:
> > I believe that you have to review your soil chemistry
> > concepts as you don't seem to have a clear cut picture
> > of what you talking about.
> >
> > Number 1 - For your statement that :
> > " Gypsum is used to reduce sodium levels in soils
> > where excess sodium is present".
> > You are partially correct BUT the order of cations adsorption
> > to the clay is the following : H+, Na+, K+, Ca++, Mg++
> > That means that anion SO4-- from Gypsum will remove
> > preferably H+, then Na+, then K+ and so on.
> > Sulphate (SO4--) will remove basically every cations but
> > the order of preference will be the above.
> > It does not remove only Sodium (Na+) leaving everything else
> behind.
> > No !!! Everything will go out. This aspect is facilitated by the
> > flocculation
> > (Opening) capacity of the Calcium contained in the Gypsum.
> > As the soil opens by flocculation of the clay myceles everything
> having
> > a
> > positive charge will attach to sulphate and will leave the soil.
> > So what you just said is a half truth.
> >
> > Number 2 - " germination of
> > weed seeds can greatly be reduced." ( by mulching )
> > You sound like you did not read entirely my previous message.
> > Steve Diver have said that applying CT to the weeds will make them
> > grow more exuberant which I do agree. But I have already said
that
> > if they in fact grow more that would be a great chance to cut
them
> and
> > make a nice mulching.
> >
> > Number 3 -
> > " As far as the soil goes, if you add phosphorous and levels
> become
> > too high, you risk tying up other nutrients "
> >
> > Did I ever suggested to add phosphorus so that the levels will
> became
> > TOO high ?
> >
> > No, what I have just said is that ALL the samples have low
> phosphorus
> > AVAILABILITY so either you add P or you make it soluble working
> the soil
> > biology. Do you know any other way ? Please let me know because I
> don't.
> >
> > Number 4 -
> > " If you add gypsum, you are adding more calcium and sulphur.
> Calcium
> > interferes with magnesium nutrtion."
> >
> > Probably you are not aware of Dr Albrecht's concepts to soil
> chemistry.
> > If you were, you would know that there is only one instance that
> gypsum
> > is recommended and that is when you have around 60% of the base
> > saturation
> > filled with Calcium.
> > Do you know why ? Probably not.
> > That is because whenever you apply Gypsum, you paradoxically loose
> > calcium so that at the end you end up with less calcium than when
> you
> > started. Check that out.
> > You apply gypsum and the soils opens. Everything leaves ( not only
> > Sodium as you think) including calcium and the soils tights up
> again,
> > but if you have enough
> > calcium that retightening would happen that much.
> > All the 4 samples had calcium above 60% in the base saturation.
> > % of Base Saturation for Calcium
> > Ca 70.6 62.3 72.5
> > 69.5
> >
> > Do you see any sample bellow 60% in those figures ?
> > Some of them I dare to say have already TOO much calcium and that
> > already is interfering with Magnesium so taking out some calcium
> seems
> > like a good idea.
> >
> > Number 5-
> > " Calcium is present in nearly all irrigation water".
> >
> > We have two aspects here.
> > A- That is again a half truth presented to this road side weed
> problem.
> > It is true that irrigation water contains calcium BUT not in
> the
> > quantity
> > and in the form that soil needs it, otherwise we would not
> see a
> > generalized lack of calcium throughout the world ( USA
> included ).
> > I have seen soils in Texas that have so much calcium that you
> actually
> > see
> > little white stones and the irrigation water has so much calcium
> that
> > every irrigation drip leaves a white halo around the water bulb
> but yet
> > the plants suffers from calcium deficiency.
> > So that responds to you above remarks.
> > B - Are you suggesting irrigating the road side plots of all USA
> and
> > when
> > project lider is worried about the cost of soil analysis ?
> > If you ever get to be the Secretary of Agriculture of the USA
> > please let me know
> > in advance because then irrigation might become a very good
> > business.
> >
> > Finally I did not quite understand what was your practical
> suggestions
> > to this
> > project. What should Merla do ? Leave as it is . Do nothing.
> >
> > I said put P according to the need, put Gypsum ( also to the
need )
> > and apply Compost Tea. Those were my suggestions and make
mulching.
> >
> > What do you suggest ?
> >
> > To my understanding your remarks were not geared by good will and
> > the willing to help Merla but solely with the intention to
> antagonize
> > what I have
> > said about it.
> >
> > Please review your soil chemistry concepts before engaging
> yourself in a
> > soil
> > chemistry contest.
> >
> > Try again.
> >
> > Jose
>
>
>
>
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