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RES: [compost_tea] Re: Correction on Soil Analysis
Hi ElPrune,
This is a Compost Tea list an not a Soil Chemistry list.
I believe that at this point the audience is nauseated with this
subject. It took a while for you to respond so it is legitimate to
think that you really know nothing about this subject and went for
help with someone else. You should try to look for help with
a better person next time.
Which one is more soluble Calcite or Dolomite ?
Then how come Mag leaves before Calcium ?.
May I ask what is your background in Soil Chemistry ?.
Do I offend you if I ask what are your credentials because
then it will be a never ending discussion ?.
Do you agree if we take a referee to this contest ?
My credentials are a Master's Degree in Horticulture from MSU.
A grower for the last twenty two years. Have taken Kinsey's courses.
Organic grower for the last 5 years. Have taken Elaine's CT class.
Interested in Compost Tea. Build first CT brewer in Brazil .
Number 1 - For your statement "that the order of cations adsorption
to the clay is the following : H+, Na+, K+, Ca++, Mg++" is False.
See above . Which one is more soluble calcite or dolomite ?
(1) Magnesium is released before calcium. In this case, calcium
replaces the other cations, it's not getting replaced by itself.
Chemical nonsense.
(2) Calcium will increase.
Non sense
You fail to take into account that the magnitude of the charge is
not the only consideration. The SIZE of the ion also determines the
strength of attraction between cations and soil particles.
--------------
Elprune you must convince Dolomite to perform as you say.
Because this is not what we see in practice in real life.
I am talking about real life. Maybe the person that have told you that
is not aware that calcite is more soluble than dolomite.
If the things would perform as you say then Dolomite should be more
soluble than Calcite. We all know that this is not true.
Would you need another week to respond that ?
----------------
The calcium displaces the sodium and THEN the sulphate combines with
the sodium and is leached out.
Number 2 - Your statement "if they in fact grow more that would be a
great chance to cut them and make a nice mulching".
They will need to be composted first to kill any seeds or you will
end up with a worse problem than you started with.
Have you ever heard about light being necessary for weed germination ?.
With a mulching on top of the soil how can the weeds germinate ?
Are you a grower ? No grower would ever make such a dummy statement
like that.
Number 3 - Adding Phosphorous is one of the most expensive
fertilizer elements there are. Very impractical.
Have you ever heard about Rock Phosphate ?
Number 4 - Calcium will not leave. See Number 1.
B.S.
Number 5 - Over time, calcium will build up in the soil from
irrigation water. No additional calcium would be needed.
B.S. That will not happen.
If the soil analysis is too costly, imagine how much it will cost to
make and spray CT, add Phosphorous and Gypsum.
This you will have to ask the Project leader, i.e. Merla .
She just wanted a solution for the problem. I gave her.
My solution costs less than irrigation that you have suggested.
Aside from planting ground cover and irrigating as too expensive,
then using weed cloth could be another alternative.
Nice try, but I HAVE done my homework.
------------------
I disagree you have done nothing but antagonize all the time.
Next time get the help from someone better than the fellow that
has helped you this time.
Regards
Jose
--- In compost_tea@yahoogroups.com, "Jose Luiz M Garcia"
<gingerjo@t...> wrote:
> I believe that you have to review your soil chemistry
> concepts as you don't seem to have a clear cut picture
> of what you talking about.
>
> Number 1 - For your statement that :
> " Gypsum is used to reduce sodium levels in soils
> where excess sodium is present".
> You are partially correct BUT the order of cations adsorption
> to the clay is the following : H+, Na+, K+, Ca++, Mg++
> That means that anion SO4-- from Gypsum will remove
> preferably H+, then Na+, then K+ and so on.
> Sulphate (SO4--) will remove basically every cations but
> the order of preference will be the above.
> It does not remove only Sodium (Na+) leaving everything else
behind.
> No !!! Everything will go out. This aspect is facilitated by the
> flocculation
> (Opening) capacity of the Calcium contained in the Gypsum.
> As the soil opens by flocculation of the clay myceles everything
having
> a
> positive charge will attach to sulphate and will leave the soil.
> So what you just said is a half truth.
>
> Number 2 - " germination of
> weed seeds can greatly be reduced." ( by mulching )
> You sound like you did not read entirely my previous message.
> Steve Diver have said that applying CT to the weeds will make them
> grow more exuberant which I do agree. But I have already said that
> if they in fact grow more that would be a great chance to cut them
and
> make a nice mulching.
>
> Number 3 -
> " As far as the soil goes, if you add phosphorous and levels
become
> too high, you risk tying up other nutrients "
>
> Did I ever suggested to add phosphorus so that the levels will
became
> TOO high ?
>
> No, what I have just said is that ALL the samples have low
phosphorus
> AVAILABILITY so either you add P or you make it soluble working
the soil
> biology. Do you know any other way ? Please let me know because I
don't.
>
> Number 4 -
> " If you add gypsum, you are adding more calcium and sulphur.
Calcium
> interferes with magnesium nutrtion."
>
> Probably you are not aware of Dr Albrecht's concepts to soil
chemistry.
> If you were, you would know that there is only one instance that
gypsum
> is recommended and that is when you have around 60% of the base
> saturation
> filled with Calcium.
> Do you know why ? Probably not.
> That is because whenever you apply Gypsum, you paradoxically loose
> calcium so that at the end you end up with less calcium than when
you
> started. Check that out.
> You apply gypsum and the soils opens. Everything leaves ( not only
> Sodium as you think) including calcium and the soils tights up
again,
> but if you have enough
> calcium that retightening would happen that much.
> All the 4 samples had calcium above 60% in the base saturation.
> % of Base Saturation for Calcium
> Ca 70.6 62.3 72.5
> 69.5
>
> Do you see any sample bellow 60% in those figures ?
> Some of them I dare to say have already TOO much calcium and that
> already is interfering with Magnesium so taking out some calcium
seems
> like a good idea.
>
> Number 5-
> " Calcium is present in nearly all irrigation water".
>
> We have two aspects here.
> A- That is again a half truth presented to this road side weed
problem.
> It is true that irrigation water contains calcium BUT not in
the
> quantity
> and in the form that soil needs it, otherwise we would not
see a
> generalized lack of calcium throughout the world ( USA
included ).
> I have seen soils in Texas that have so much calcium that you
actually
> see
> little white stones and the irrigation water has so much calcium
that
> every irrigation drip leaves a white halo around the water bulb
but yet
> the plants suffers from calcium deficiency.
> So that responds to you above remarks.
> B - Are you suggesting irrigating the road side plots of all USA
and
> when
> project lider is worried about the cost of soil analysis ?
> If you ever get to be the Secretary of Agriculture of the USA
> please let me know
> in advance because then irrigation might become a very good
> business.
>
> Finally I did not quite understand what was your practical
suggestions
> to this
> project. What should Merla do ? Leave as it is . Do nothing.
>
> I said put P according to the need, put Gypsum ( also to the need )
> and apply Compost Tea. Those were my suggestions and make mulching.
>
> What do you suggest ?
>
> To my understanding your remarks were not geared by good will and
> the willing to help Merla but solely with the intention to
antagonize
> what I have
> said about it.
>
> Please review your soil chemistry concepts before engaging
yourself in a
> soil
> chemistry contest.
>
> Try again.
>
> Jose
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