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Re: Bill Mollison copyright statement

bravo you folks are have a standing invite from us at  Sonoma  Permaculture
>From: "Kent Jared" <kejared@ibm.net>
>To: "permaculture" <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
>Subject: Re: Bill Mollison copyright statement
>Date: Fri, Jun 4, 1999, 5:07 AM

>Hi Russ
>                Could you tell me if I could find present texts that cover
>the extremes of this argument?
>Would you know of any Permaculture books that talk closer to the side of
>cities and how they suggest to integrate the process of Permaculture in the
>large city areas.
>                Reason why? I have a real time situation at hand that is in
>need of a book of this nature. I have shared the book of PERMACULTURE with a
>native rain forest person and after teaching her English. She comes to me
>with hours of debate about the differences in the book. Note she only has a
>English education, no sciences what so ever! So I am married to this girl
>now and brought her to several different places in the world. Only to find
>that due to her ability to see nature as she does so easily,  seems to give
>her an advantage in the rural planing of the concept of Permaculture. So now
>she has seen a huge city and her main desire is to show and tell me of what
>she thinks is missing in the link between permaculture and the city! there
>has been some good input here. Also when I took her to Bermuda the island so
>sensitive to all around it. She offered endless suggestions to the locals
>there which surprised many . Then continued to question about what the
>people on such a little island have done to manage to control there
>environment. Bermuda is very small and there is an average of sixty thousand
>people living there. Not including the mad tourist season too! I see Bermuda
>quite advanced in city permaculture have you ever been there to see there
>balance. I must admit this is like seeing a micro EARTH on earth. Even their
>housing is very complex for fresh water collection, to add!
>                Just a thought to share Bermuda with you. It has a lot of
>examples of Permaculture and the city. The history of the islands records
>are great and the plants and animals that were tested there are well
>recorded too. Even the Queen and several others used this island for this
>purpose. And to accent the history the Americans used the island as a war
>vessel too and it survived that too. It is a virtual nutshell of
>permaculture. I believe that I could offer more contacts if needed since I
>have a extreme knowledge of the area and the events that have taken place
>there. It was the source of my desire to see the study of Permaculture. But
>I never new what the term ment prior to being in Bermuda. But then I
>transfered to Brazil and found a text called PERMACULTURE.  Then I saw a
>path, Hence forth to Ahoy!
>Reverend Dr. Kent Jared
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Russ Grayson + Fiona Campbell <pacedge@magna.com.au>
>To: permaculture <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
>Sent: Friday, June 04, 1999 4:30 AM
>Subject: Re: Bill Mollison copyright statement
>Good to hear from you again Skye.
>Skye wrote:
>> Hola a todos
>> Obviously the section of the standard sylabus on clasical landscapes,
>> specifically the part on coral island atolls is not only irrelevant to
>> these mountain people, but more so, is so totally outside their realm of
>> experience that the very concept of an ocean island is incomprehensible.
>> So, can I work with these people in the name of Permaculture or not?? I
>> am certainly not about to waste their time with coral atoll
>> strategies!!!!
>> If not, then the previous comments about Pc being elitist are starting
>> to sound very real. Can we only teach Pc to those with sufficient
>> education, access to information (and maybe internet) and a wide
>> experience of concepts???
>> I have heard and read many Pc people claim Pc takes many of its
>> concepts/inspiration from nature - has anyone ever noticed that nature
>> changes and evolves???? Are we prepared to also grow and evolve -
>> Natural Succession is a basic premise of PC for me - lets try doing in
>> our organisation as well as our gardens!!
>> Skye
>I understand your concern regarding the classical landscape stuff Skye.
>Here, in
>Sydney, in the city, we have an analogous situation.
>First of all, there's a need in permaculture courses for an understanding of
>environments and landscapes and their modifications by the process of
>such as the heat island effect etc, as well as for an understanding of the
>the city is situated in, it's climate and landforms.
>Second, stuff about zones three and four, while still important to teach,
>are of less
>value in the city because all that people have in their homes is zones one
>sometimes, zone two. In Sydney, there are a few remnant market gardens which
>zone three systems.
>Sydney is at present undergoing a building boom in apartment construction,
>many more
>people are opting to live in medium density units, so this means that many
>will have
>no zone one, or that their zone one will be a balcony garden, if their
>balconies face
>sunward (north).
>What we say in our courses is that zone one may be some kilometres from zone
>zero, the
>home, if it is an apartment or if, as is often the case, the person is
>renting and is
>not permitted to build a garden in their rented premises. In these
>circumstances, zone
>one becomes the nearest community garden. Now, I'm aware that some folk will
>say that
>there is an energy cost in travelling to a community garden to obtain fresh
>food, but
>that's rather small compared to the energy, road congestion and pollution
>cost of
>railing or trucking the food in from the country.
>I wonder how this modification to the permaculture zonal orthodoxy is
>impacted by our
>supposedly having to teach permaculture as per the syllabus provided by the
>Permaculture Institute Australia and, as explained in his recent mailing,
>which is the
>intellectual property of Bill Mollison?
>There is a valid argument, I believe, for developing an adapted permaculture
>course for urban areas. The fact in Australia, as elsewhere, is that more
>and more
>people are living in cities and, if the cities canot be made sustainable,
>then it is
>questionable that the rest of the country can be made sustainable.
>An urban permaculture course content would retain all the ethics and
>principles as, I
>believe, they are universally applicable. However, there would be less focus
>on rural
>material and its replacement by material pertinent to the sustainable
>development of
>cities and on how to adopt sustainable lifestyles in urban areas.
>A number of PDC students have told me that the existing course is too rural
>in outlook
>and content and, as they have no intention of moving to the country, more
>content on
>urban living would make the course more relevant.
>Skye, this gets to the final statement in your email, above, about 'growing
>evolving'. Yes, I agree - permaculture has to take a clue from nature and
>grow and
>evolve in an analogous way. What we need, maybe, are bioregionally adapted
>permaculture coursee (we already have some, I believe) - some for different
>parts of
>the country, some adapted to life in the cities.
>What I'm talking about is not wholesale change of the design curse
>curriculum, but
>adaption to local circumstances and needs.
>...Russ Grayson
>Russ Grayson and Fiona Campbell
>PO Box 446, Kogarah NSW 2217 AUSTRALIA
>Phone/ fax   02-9588 6931   (IDD-61+2+9588 6931)
>Email: pacedge@magna.com.au
>PERMACULTURE/ COMMUNITY BASED ESD: permaculture education + Australian City
>Farms and
>Community Gardens Network (NSW contact) + organic gardening training +
>training (community waste minimisation training) + overseas development
>project management services.
>MEDIA: journalism/ photojournalism (global development; environment and
>social change; sustainable community development) + publication design +
>publishing services.
>> --
>> Skye - Apdo # 391,  Patzcuaro, Michoacan, CP. 61600 México.
>> fax  (52) 01 (434) 24743
>> Profesor y diseñador en Permacultura
>> Director del Instituto de Permacultura de México A.C.
>> Talleres de desarrollo humano, planeación participativa y
>> economía comunitaria.
>> ---
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