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Re: GBlist: Re: Insulation/ attic- crawlspace



Hello, Beth--

For once I'm going to beat Bruce Sullivan to the punch and tell you that
the Sahara is made by DEC International, Inc. Therma-Stor Products Group in
Madison Wisconsin. Their phone number is 1-800-533-7533. While we have not
seen a Sahara installed here in Portland, our experience with other DEC
products and their product engineers has been excellent.

John Bower will probably have some insights into the smell you described,
but I wondered if you had mentioned whether you have air conditioning? If
so, what happens to the water that condenses on the air conditioning coil?
Is it possible there is a back-up in the drip pan or drain hose that would
allow algae or mold to grow, or to wet the drywall or insulation?

Best, Mike

>Hi John-
>   I thank you very much for responding to my post.  My husband and I
>spent Sunday afternoon- learning from your book-"The Healthy House', and
>certainly it answers a lot of questions for us.  I do however want to
>respond to your note to me, as well as go into a bit more detail on why I
>asked the question in the first place.
>
>You wrote:
>Insulation is only a problem if it migrates from where it is located
>>(inside building cavities such as walls and attics, and crawl spaces)
>>to
>>where people are located (the living space). There are a variety of
>>ways
>>that such migration takes place.
>>
>>A low-tox insulation (such as AirKrete) can be quite costly, so I
>>usually recommend preventing the insulation from getting into the
>>living
>>space. The thinking is this: if the insulation stays out of the living
>>space, you aren't exposed, so it can't affect you.
>
>This is one of the things that concerns me.  I had started noticing a
>problem when  it started getting hot and humid here.  The air coming
>through the ducts (central air- electric)- smelled like a cardboard/ wet
>paper/ sheetrock, type of smell.  At first I thought somehow this "toxic"
>odor was coming  from the garage- because with the garage doors closed,
>that is how it smells out there.  It is an attached garage, Anything like
>cardboard boxes, or extra clutter has been removed and stored in a shed.
>There was a fairly new sheetrock wall ( I know)  put up in there in the
>spring to divide the laundry room and air handler room form the rest of
>the garage.  There is a door from the garage to the house where that
>laundry room is.  No work has been done in that room- due to my
>sensitivities, except for my husband covering over the sheetrock wall
>with stainless steel- to help rid the area of some of that odor.  The
>door to the house seems well sealed-  we worked on that.  At first we
>thought this smell was coming from the garage-  but that was just too
>obvious.  We have by the way, a stucco ranch, on a slab.
>
>We had a popcorn ceiling in the house that had been scraped off
>professionally, for other reasons, that I don't want to bother you with.
>So the ceilings in the house to the touch have a powdery residue, then
>just the sheetrock.  Since I can't paint and live here, that situation
>remains.  I am still trying to figure out alternatives to "sealing in" or
>protecting myself from that ceiling.  We vacuumed the ceiling again,  and
>my symptoms were better.  So, many area of concern here.  I'm trying to
>say,  I don't know if  I am really protected from the attic space, due to
>the ceiling situation for one,  and I wanted to give you a better picture
>of the situation.
>
>
>In new construction, you can build a very tight house (don't forget
>>mechanical ventilation), and the insulation, no matter what kind it
>>is,
>>can't get into the living space. I've done this several times with
>>sensitive people with great success, even using insulation that would
>>be
>>bothersome if a sensitive person is exposed directly.
>>
>>In existing houses, you are limited as to how tight you can make a
>>house
>>simply because you can't get to all the leakage points. Yes, you can
>>often tighten a great deal, but you just can't get an existing house
>>as
>>tight as one you are building from scratch and tightening as you put
>>it
>>together.
>
>
>We covered around ceiling fans with foil tape,  and any openings we could
>detect in any way.   The air handler in the garage seems really tight,
>and the ductwork is all new metal, that was scrubbed clean of residue,
>that was done well, and wrapped at the seams with the foil tape.  The is
>no insulation in the system - it's on the outside.  I might not be
>explaining this well, hope it makes sense.
>
>>My suggestion in your situation is this: use a fan to blow air from
>>the
>>outdoors into the living space to pressurize the house. That way, air
>>will enter the living space via the fan, then it will leak out through
>>the structure, through building cavities, and toward the outdoors.
>>Thus
>>there will be no air (or pollutants) traveling from the
>>insulation-filled cavities into the living space, the air will be
>>moving
>>in the opposite direction. Please be advised that I would not make
>>this
>>same recommendation in a cold climate. You said you lived in a warm,
>>moist climate. Pressurization in a cold climate can lead to hidden
>>moisture problems. For more information see my book Understanding
>>Ventilation.
>
>
>Thank you so much.  We did read that and more.  We have gotten other
>advise as well about that fact that an "air-exchanger' would benefit me.
>You listed in your book 'Heat Recovery Ventilator"-  I'm not sure if they
>are the same thing, but if I am understanding this correctly, they are
>the same principle.
>
>Since we live in a warm moist climate, we need an air exchange that will
>filter the air and dehumidify it before bringing it into the house.  It
>would also have to be set up to have a manual on/off switch  because at
>times the air is not desirable to bring in-  for example-  pesticides, or
>any chemical odors,   My understanding is that these units exist,  one
>type that is a separate unit that can be installed in any room, and the
>other type that can be installed in relation to working in conjunction
>with the air handler.
>
>I really need info on these air exchangers. I don't know anything more on
>them except one was mentioned to me called a 'Sahara"? .  No one seems to
>know anything more.  Is there a web site for locating, getting info on
>them and investigating them, or some places i could call?   I'd really
>like to get going on this aspect at least-  so I can hopefully start
>feeling better, and get some better quality air in here.
>
>In your book I saw the names of companies for the 'Heat Recovery
>Ventilator', but I don't know if I'm really dealing with the same thing
>as just an air exchanger.
>
>>Having said all that, in the majority of cases, sensitive people are
>>bothered by materials that are actually within the living space.
>>Things
>>such as carpet, cabinets, wall paneling, furnishings, cleaning
>>products,
>>etc., are more often the problem than someting going on in a building
>>cavity.
>
>Well, by now you know the ceiling is a problem.- It didn't "seem" to be
>such an immediate problem until it got hot and humid, and the air coming
>through the system got that smell.  Could be I suppose, that I'm just
>recirculation this "bad air, and " with a ceiling like this It still
>doesn't change the fact that we feel the air exchange is necessary for
>me.
>
> I just want to mention,  that a 'Pure Air' whole house filtration system
>was installed to the air handler- and all did seem well until the heat
>and humidity came.  Whatever is happening it over rides the filtration
>system of the house.  I'm sure I am being very inaccurate explaining this
>situation, but I'm doing the best I can with this.  I also believe
>strongly that this positive' negative air flow is a very important factor
>as well.
>My husband and I are very appreciate of being "steered in the right
>direction" that can be provided for me, so I can feel better, and
>hopefully have some recovery. I'm supposing also that I need to hire an
>engineer about measuring this  positive/negative air flow.  I've taken up
>too much of your time already,  but  certainly wanted to respond,
>hopefully with more accuracy,, and give you a better picture of the
>situation, and why I asked the question in the first place.  Any steering
>me in the right direction is much appreciate, I'm sure you know.
>
>Thanks Again,   Beth
>______________________________________________________________________
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O'Brien & Associates
Environmental Building Consultants
Portland General Electric Earth Smart program
obrien@hevanet.com


______________________________________________________________________
This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST <www.crest.org>
Environmental Building News <www.ebuild.com> and Oikos <www.oikos.com>
For  instructions send  e-mail to  greenbuilding-request@crest.org.
______________________________________________________________________


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