Permaculture Online



Ideas - Integrated chicken & duck coop and run & vegetable garden

an international brain-storming session...

Dear all, Remember my question abouts ducks and chickens? My despair about slugs? My self-confessed lazyness about weeding? Well, I have been seriously toying with an idea now for the past couple days, inspired a while back by Doug Norval from South Africa who unfortunately I cannot contact (e-mail bounces) to see has his system worked out.
Well, I would like to bounce this off you guys to see what I'm missing and to ask some questions which you may be able to answer from your experience.

The aim of the design would be to combine the benefits of chickens and Indian runner ducks with the veggie garden.
The birds need: housing with good light, dryness, warmth, nests, perches, water and food, some shelter outdoors, protection from predators (dogs,mink,foxes)
The birds provide: eggs, meat, scratching/clearing ground/eating critter, slug eating, fertilizer etc.
The garden needs: ground clearing, SERIOUS slug control, fertilizer The garden provides: food for us, and leftovers for the birds, and joy if the dreaded slugs are gone!

Imagine four concentric octagons (with the same square footage of walls/fencing, an octagon plan encloses 20% more space than a conventional rectangular ground plan - i.e. less material needed).

This is how I imagine it:
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Starting from the inside: (exchange yards / square yards for meters if you wish)
1) Poultry house - 3m in diameter. c. 7m2 surface area
2) Straw yard - 1m wide all around, c. 13m2 surface area
3) 7 garden beds 3m wide (c. 10m2 each), plus the south (sunward)-facing one of the 8 sections as access to the whole thing for myself and for the birds to the outer perimeter (4). This also follows standard recommendations in terms of giving the birds the most advantageous section (most sunny) as a run. The 8 veg. sections would be divided by simple but bird-proof fencing (1.20-1.50m) to allow for controlled one-by-one access. Is also handy for crop rotation purposes. Gives me 70m2 growing area which is not a lot but if it works will grow a lot more crops than I'm growing now as I'm loosing 90% to - guess what - slugs.
4) Slug control zone - 1.5m wide

At any one time the birds (c. 6-7 chickens + a pair of Indian runners) would have outdoor access to the straw yard (2), the access section (one eights of (3)) and the outer perimeter - all in all 85m2. Bird density is determined here by a minimum of 10 m2/adult bird outdoor access.
As required the birds can be given access to the cultivated garden sections in (3) to perform their little duties.

The size of the whole thing is limited by terrain/available space in the appropriate location (near to house) It determines 14m diameter in all.

Additional thoughts:
  1. I could have the south-facing third of the octagon as a very small greenhouse (the ol' chickens + greenhouse idea) where I could grow a few sweetcorn plants (as C4 plants* they actually DO capture the CO2 breathed out by the birds at night, as opposed to non-C4 plants - a flaw I always saw in the general idea of combining the two; and corn can deal with a substantial amount of chicken sh**.), plus some herbs etc. for regular use could be grown on the partition wall.
    * see http://www.ibiblio.org/london/agriculture/general/1/msg00039.html
    I would section off this area with nestboxes + thermal mass wall of some kind + screening in upper half, and a door from the birds' area. While the thermal mass would give good heat retention for the night there has to be some compromise with light penetration into the coop proper. Additional windows on the E and W side could remedy that.
  2. I could have a very small (max. c. 2*2m) water area for the ducks in the access section in (3), which would also reflect some more light into the house in winter if properly positioned.
  3. A compost heap could be situated on the north wall of the coop for extra heat/insulation.


My problems:
  1. Fencing: we need good predator protection, so the outer perimeter must be very strong (probably ugly chain-link @ 5-6 ft). How does one get a proper door into that? The inner fences must protect the veg garden from unwanted attention by the birds. How high should they be? (I know how to clip chicken wings, and IRD I believe do not fly). What material should I use?
  2. Access: Should I go from the outside in, i.e. one door from outer perimeter, a door each into each of the 10m2 garden sections? Or should I go right into the straw yard and put doors from the straw yard outwards to each of the garden sections, rather than just popholes for occassional bird access? If I share one of the sections (3) as an access with the birds, I'll presumably have to walk through a lot of poo? Is there an alternative?
  3. Material for house: Wood - good material but fierce expensive in this treeless country, on the pro side I have a lot of old windows, i.e. not so much wood needed Stone - good thermal mass, local material but thick walls limit space even more Timberframe plus wattle + daub - really like that idea, is it rat-proof though?
  4. Floor: all serious poultry books seem to say that one needs a dry floor w/o rising damp to keep birds healthy and productive. Any ideas/ experiences? (We have 1000mm precipitation)
  5. Roof: a simple greenroof/grassroof is appealing but what shape might you suggest for an octagon? Access roof water could somehow by syphoned into a rainwater drum for birds, and plants, and little 'pond'. Insulation: as long as the house is reasonably dry this is not so much of an issue here (Jan aver. 6 degrees C, July aver. 15 day-time temps.)
  6. Birds functions: The chickens and ducks fulfill very different functions. But since they live in the same house, is there a way to, say, get the ducks into an established planting off cabbages to clear the slugs w/o letting the chooks in as well. I havent' kept ducks so I'm not familiar with their habits.
    Also, is the slug control zone wide enough @1.5m? I know slugs can travel considerably further in a night but space is limited but from experience here I know that they don't really like crossing a bare area. -> Bird densities must be so regulated that this area stays relatively bare or at least in very short grass without overcrowding the birds (min 10m2 per bird oudoors).

As you can see the design process is far from finished - perhaps I'm going off on the wrong tangent altogether?

Indian Runner DucksKhaki Campbell Any inputs and ideas are warmly welcome.

(to alt.permaculture newsgroup or to me)

Cheers,
Ute


Update: First suggestions (and my own comments):

  1. The ducks will really enjoy a good feed of cabbages whiles they munch on the slugs - you'd really need to monitor this carefully - could be you'd only get damage on outer leaves but I'd be very cautious. Ducks enjoy eating lots of greens, not only weeds but many vegies.
    All duck breeds are omnivours and love/need lots of fresh greens in their diet. They also enjoy insect food. The best variety for slugs and snails is the kaki cambell and I can guarantee they also love pigging out on cabbage, lettuce and other garden greens.
    Robyn
    Thanks Robyn, looks like all is not as simple as it seems. Opinions seem to vary on the best duck breed for slug control. Indian Runners appeal to me since they reputedly (is it true?) don't fly.
    Georg (in Germany) adds: I am having different experience with runner ducks - mine werent touching a thing except slugs until they wore the population down considerably - after that they cleared my pole beans of any leaves as high as they could reach - was still no problem, since they were already well grown. no other losses of green stuff to runners. and friends tell me, that their taste for whatever varies considerably with the individual - just as with dogs or bears...
  2. I would put the ducks in the outermost ring. They will denude the soil and be the best patrol against the slugs and snails. The chooks shouldn't eat them (can't remember why now) and their habits of sploshing water everywhere and making a muddy mess will not cause the chooks any foot damage or illness. ('Course I'll pay to see you walking over this quagmire during the worst of the winter gales :-))
    Fran
    Cheers, Fran. The problem with duck housing in the outer ring is that this would call for another detached construction. I do however see the conflict between the messy ducks and the 'xerophylous' chooks. In any case I will keep the duck water outdoors. As to the quagmire - Ireland is a sodden place at the best of times... Will need good paving or gravel path for my own movement through the access section.
  3. Raise the coop on stilts (mine is about a metre off the floor) so that they can always have a dry dust bath underneath it and to stop the floor rotting.
    Thank you, Lisa. I have thought about this but it would make the greenhouse integration quite difficult. Also it would mean that the floor must be very strong (load bearing - my load) and to achieve head height the whole construction would he higher again, and cast a correspondlingly longer shadow on the veg beds W,NW,N,NE,E. Might be easier to provide a semi-closed box for dust baths outdoors, or would that mean mud-baths?
    Make the floor of the coop open or slide out to make it easier to clean if you can do the whole thing on a good slope you can feed at the top and collect manure at the bottom.
    No slope available. Jerome Osentowski has or had such a system and it is reported to work brilliantly.
    Chickens dont like damp but ducks need a body of water and will hunt for it. Chickens only eat small slugs but they do eat snail shells if broken up. Chickens work well with sweetcorn as ruslting through it helps fertilisation - mine is underplanted with fenugreek.
    Excellent thought about them rustling the corn. I had Buff Orpingtons which ate snails whole. I suppose it depends on the size of the birds.
    Do you have foxes? you may need to do some serious fencing or get some nice violent chickens.
    Yes. We do. And dogs. And mink. Where does one get violent chickens? :)
    If its cold in the winter the hens will need shutting in at night.
    It's always cold... at least this summer...


access Done a bit more thinkin' about doors/popholes. I reckon going in through the concentric sections the same way the birds move out minimises the amount of gates required. I would have my own door into the coop while the birds could move in and out through the greenhouse via popholes. That would require a removeable bent wire tunnel of sorts during times when the birds could do damage to plants in the greenhouse.


More feedback:
  1. The shelter

    a. Thought of strawbale construction [?], and render it. Cheap, great thermal qualities, excellent soundproofing and easy. What you lose in floorspace [this is not a priority in this design] Would quite happily hold up a light roof.

    b. Divide this into 2 and it would be better bird management. Ducks on one side with access to current garden[s] and chickens on other side with access to fallow side.

    c. Put it on an outside fence - walking thru a garden get to be a pain and it means external gates all over the place and these are all possible places of escape or entry by foxes, dogs etc

    d. Consider dispensing entirely with a straw yard.

    e. Make sure you can get a wheelbarrow thru the door[s].

    f. I would run a deep litter system in your climate.

    g. Remember the soundproof quality of mud brick - ducks can be bloody noisy at times.

    I always tossed any ''straw'', including prunings etc onto the fallow side and let the chooks scratch the whole lot round for the season. At the end of the season I seperated the sticks out of the mulch and burned them in situ. This is your next garden.

  2. The ducks

    1.Ducks will eat slugs and runners are successful at this BUT you have to control their diet. It is a maintenance diet only of grass and low protein feed. You need for them to hunt the slugs chasing protein and not be feed a protein type diet and have them dining on your vegies. When I ran this style of system I used to cut grass, chaff for the ducks [never feed them anything you might grow] and fed them barley. [Oats may also be useful for this.] Ducks are not fond of barley but will eat it. If you successfully nail your slugs....... and this should happen within a week... You can reduce the amount of time outside and increase their feed. BE CAREFUL.. ducks will eat seedlings not all the time and not every time. It is a matter of balance.. Ducks are also clumsy and will stomp on them too.. I would not give them any layer type food whilst they are wanted for slug control. Remember, I am in australia and Irish ducks might love the local barley but you understand what I am on about. If you let the ducks out and they starting biting at anything - throw them some food.... FAST.

    2. Keep a spray container with a mix of hot chilli. Spray your fenceline and even under your plants with that. It will burn tiny seedlings. Also spray any likely hiding places with bleach, vinegar or eucalyptus oil. You want the fumes to dislodge them and get them moving. Chose whichever substance fits your wallet or standards. You are trying to keep them out or at least somewhere the ducks can find them.

    If you are using the same housing for ducks and chooks. Put a large shelf on the back wall with a chicken watering system, external access to chicken nests for egg collection. Ducks cannot jump and live on the floor. It makes it easy to deal with chickens and if you must put them together you can feed them seperately. I dont think you can house them together and have them doing different jobs around the garden for you without creating a management nightmare. I did have my ducks originally exiting thru a PVC pipe with a bend in it but invariably a chook would work this out and go for the vegies. Put your perches higher than your shelf, plenty of them and at the OTHER end. The ducks will most likely sleep under the shelf end. Don't bother with duck nests at ground level they wont use them. You will find them all over the place, they will also lay at any time of day.

  3. The Chickens

    Chickens or chooks are best managed where you have clean hassle-free access to the eggs, food and water. If you ignore anything else I write do not build a chickencoop that you have to enter all the time to attend to these 3 issues. Go to the trouble of making sure you have outside [reach in] access to their water, food and eggs. These are your fallow garden workhorses and egg producers. They will also brood your duck eggs. [Ducks will lay anywhere except in a nest especially Runners]. Any food/garden scraps are just thrown over the fence into their run. Once a week or so, just rake over the fallow side. Mostly it will have old cabbages or whatever still happily growing. The chooks will eat most of this. Knock the last of it down and you can even throw a bale of hay in there for entertainment.

  4. The Slugs

    You can do a lot to minimise slug intrusion by removing any habitat, mow the grass around the edge of the pen very short....... make it at least a 2 metre strip. Set up traps for them along the fenceline and check daily. Once you have the garden 'safe'..... let the ducks out and get them eating slugs on the way in and before they reach the garden. I did wash the slugs off the pots into a sealed bucket and let them die [in the heat of australia]. Eventually I mixed this up and sprayed it around. Garden myth says this is a good thing to do. I have no idea if it worked because the slugs had all but gone by then and I had no way of quantifying it.

    You can also string a light up in your veggie garden. Ducks work quite happily at night with a bit of assistance. They dont need much light.

  5. The Fence

    Your fence should be a minimum of 6' high. Both ducks and chooks can and will fly over that height if frightened. Once they learn they can clear it - there will always be 1 or 2 that will. Also when chooks go broody they will want to fly out. Any lower than 6' and you are courting problems.

    I would not make a pen out of chain link. It is overkill but then again, I am in australia with a variety of light wires available so I cannot make an Irish suggestion here.

    I made my fences super tight at the bottom and floppier at the top so that chooks dont learn to run and flap up them. It also discourages foxes and cats from climbing them. Foxes are excellent climbers and love ducks. Just lean your fences inward a few degrees. I stay my fences at 45degrees and use the stays to grow cucurbits up and the rest of the fenceline for peas and beans, nothing too heavy.

    I use 2 metre wire octagon shaped with about 50mm holes [yes baby chickens can escape] with a strained wire at ground level and another at about 400mm to stop foxes pulling at it. The top wire was at 185mm not strained, basically the wire was just straightened out neatly...with the top 150mm flopped outwards. I cut the mesh at the corners to facilitate this.

  6. A hothouse

    I have never had a hothouse but one on the outside end that you have your shelves and nests would be ok. Easier to find you way through a hothouse than an overgrown and probably wet garden. Attached to the end of a strawbale fowlhouse would assist its thermal qualities, you would soon find a balance with a thermometer.

  7. The garden

    This is based on an annual garden. Perennials can be included but again they are managed differently. I would find 2 pens to be entirely adequate but I am not in Ireland but I do live where there is one major growing season. You mentioned 4 or 5 gardens - what for? The amount of fowl you need will be determined by the size of your veggie plot.

    This system minimises external inputs for food too. I always grow rocket for chooks and they get anything that isnt suitable for human consumption. The chook house and fallow garden provide nearly all of the mulch you need for your new garden. This system should be excellent after about 3 seasons. You may wish to try a cover crop when you first start up. I have started for myself and others a number of similar designs...... generally I put all the birds into one side and on the other I start with a cover crop. I use a packet of parrot seed as a great starter crop. It has a variety of grains and is an interesting mix, you can also assess soil quality etc. Once the birds have one side clean, I move them over and they can play in the other crop for a few months.

    I note your octagon. I only ever built squarish and I have no defence or reason.... Laziness maybe but isnt that the underlying principle of Permaculture?

    Mike, the underlying reason is this: Much less material is needed to enclose a given circular area than a rectangular or square area of the same size. An octagon is simply an approximation to a circle. A circle is difficult to fence. I quote from an article on the efficieny of round barns:
    "The Illinois authorities have conducted innumerable tests pertaining to the efficiency of the round barn; they have built two of these barns on the grounds of the college farm, and for several years have utilized them with great success as quarters for live stock and to provide storage room for grain and hay. The results of their detailed investigations show that the circular structure is much stronger; that the rectangular form requires twenty-two percent more wall and foundation to enclose the same space; and that the cost of material is from thirty-four to fifty-eight per cent more for the rectangular building. The round barn offers greater convenience in storing, handling and distributing the feed while much greater strength is secured with less lumber than is possible in the case of the rectangular building.".
    Similarly, comparing a cube and an octagonal prism of equal radius and height, the octagonal prism gives me c. 130% of the ground area and volume of the cube at only 110% of above ground surfaces (=walls and roof). Construction is, however, more demanding...

(from Mike in Australia with my own comments in italics)


Buff Orpingtons I do have a few alternative ideas for you. 1) The most important consideration should be quality nutrition for your chickens, and of course, their overall health. Their habitat should be designed and implemented with that in mind, primarily. [To which Mark replied: Hmmm. Chooks are pretty tough critters, I think you can count on them to adapt about as well or better than any other livestock.]
Stacking functions to incorporate your vegetable garden would imho be a secondary consideration. Keep in mind that eggs laid by chickens fed fresh plant material, insects, kelp, probiotic and naturally grown grain will contain adequate omega-3 fatty acids in enough quantity to conteract the omega-5 (or is it 6?) fatty acids responsible for the problems associated with cholesterol from eggs.
[To which Mark replied: Omega 6, also get such a balance in products from grazed ruminants. Chickens are regarded to have good nutritional wisdom, that is that they do an excellent job of balancing their own diet given the opportunity. I think a little effort to provide greens, bugs and decently grown grain will do them just fine. In fact you can drop the grain in the fat season and feed scraps of whatever, meat, fish, veggies, clover clippings, grain screenings etc, etc. much like ourselves they are very adaptable, especially if given a few weeks with any new feed to develop experience.]
2) With 1) in mind, I would build a moveable pen that could aligh with a group of parallel "runs" (fenced in) that would be cycled through use as forage areas or garden areas.
Larry (in NC, USA)

Thank you, Larry, for your comments. Of course I do have the chickens health in mind as well. They shall get everything they need. I have a source of organic feed grain, which I get for my goats, plus lots of whey for about 7-8 months a year from making goats cheese. Grit and lime would also be provided, and food scraps etc. Bran, mash etc. all is available. I'm not planning on feeding the birds on that little bit of ground alone.
I'm also in the process of building a small mobile run, our last one wasn't sturdy enough. However, in order to achieve sufficient control of bugs/slugs I need a bigger set up than I can move on my own, especially since I've been having a bad back since sweet 17. The small mobile run will be a supplement for e.g. the soft-fruit garden. Such 'mini-tractors' are handy but I like giving the birds their 10m2 each which is difficult with a mobile set-up.
I've toyed with the parallel bed kind of idea but the need for a permanently grazed perimeter made me move towards the concentric idea.


wattle & daub