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srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha
srImadh varavara munayE namaha

Dear Venkatesh,

Indeed an excellent post to be read by one and all. In fact, I had gone
through the entire content thoroughly 3 times. Actually the subject made
very interesting because the way you have framed questions. I really doubt
you shall expect a (proper) reply for this.

Your superlative example: The relationship between Mother and Child as that
of paramAthmA and jeevAthmA, is just excellent.

(If at all) You get a reply on this. Please keep us updated.

dAsan,
K.M. Shantha Kumar.


-----Original Message-----
From: vinjamoor_venkatesh [mailto:vinjamoorvenkat@xxxx]
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 6:11 AM
To: ramanuja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [ramanuja] Important Please read this


srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha
srImadh varavara munayE namaha

Dear Members.

This is fairly a long message but an interesting one and also an 
important fact file. So please read this carefully without omitting 
any part.

I am reproducing below a question that I posted in "sv-poetry" list 
and reposted in "sv-general" on the request of Sri Mani Varadarajan

I am posting this in our list for everyone to know the facts. It is 
surprising that some our thennAchArya sampradhAyasthars talk about 
swAmy dEsikan being an ardent vadagalai AchArya, while the fact is 
NOT AT ALL. This message will have very few citations from his works 
where one can see that his views are nothing but the same as that of 
Sri piLLai lOkAchAriyar and Sri maNavALa mAmunigaL.

Foreword : I sent this message to Sri Oppiliappan Koil Varadachari 
Sadagopan as a query to one of his mails on SaraNAgathi deepikai of 
swAmi dEsikan. 

--------------------Quote 1 --------------------------------
srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha
srImadh varavara munayE namaha

Dear Sri Sadagopan swamy,

You wrote:
------------------ Sub Quote--------------


karmasvanAdhi vishamEshu samO DayALu:
svEnaiva kluptham apadesam avEkshamANa:
svaprApathayE tanu-bhruthAm thvarasE Mukundha
svAbhAvikam Tava suhrutthvam idham gruNanthi

--SrI SaraNAgathi DhIpikai: SlOkam 14

(Meaning): Oh ViLakkoLi PerumALE! Oh MOksha-DhAyaka MukundhA ! The 
JeevAthmA acquires a sarIram (body) because of its previous karmAs. 
Its karma vinais are timeless and anAdhi. Those poorva karmAs yield 
the jeevan many kinds of fruits. 

Oh Lord! You have no natural likes or dislikes about anyone. You are 
equanimous in Your conduct towards all of the chEthanams. Even 
then,You can only grant the fruits to each jeevAthmA according to 
their karmAs. Your dayA guNam is matchless. Inspite of that abundant 
compassion , You will be accused of partiality if You grant mOksham 
to a ChEthanam that has not used the means (upAyam ) to seek Your 
grace. If You do that for one jeevan , then You have to grant the 
mOksham to all jeevans independent of whether they have performed any 
UpAya anushtAnam or not . Theredore , You await the performance of 
the easiest to practise upAyam of Prapatthi.Even that performance of 
Prapatthi by the Jeevan is caused by You. You facilitate the 
performance of that UpAyam and immediately after rush to the side of 
the ChEthanam to grant him the parama gathi of Moksham. This 
generous and compassionate act of Yours has been described by sages 
as a proof of Your innate deep affection and friendship towards the 
Jeevans.
-----------------------------End Subquote-------------------
I have a small doubt regarding the above. In this sloka Swamy Desikan 
states that He is waiting for a small pretext on the jeevAthmA, i.e., 
performing prapatti, to take the jeevAthmA unto Him. Swamy Desikan 
also says that this performance of prapatthi by the jeevAthmA is also 
induced by Him only. If that is so, what is the act on the part of 
the jeevAthmA [that he did something (sAdhyOpAyam)] to earn mOksha. 
On the other hand, if one agrees that the jeevAthmA is completely 
bound by the leela of Sriman nArAyaNan, and that is why He Himself 
induces the jeevAthmA to do prapatti, then why should He look for a 
vyAja (pretext) at all on the part of the jeevAthmA to grant mOksha. 
Isn't this a short coming on Him that He is expecting something and 
does this not go against the very title "avAptha samastha kAman" (The 
one who is completely fulfilled and needs no more from anybody). 

Request you to kindly enlighten me on the above.

AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam
adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan
Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh

---------------------End Quote------------------------------------

Now he replied for this query of mine as follows ;

---------------------Quote 2-----------------------------
Dear SrImaAn Venkatesh:

Please accept my Panguni Uttharam day greetings 
to You . May the SrIrangam Dhivya Dampathis' blessings
be with you always!

Your question is most welcome . I will respond to 
it to the best of my ability. This issue of our Lord's
spontaneous grace (nirhEthuka KrupA)versus conscious 
human effort (sahRthuka KrupA) to qualify for it 
has attracted the attention of brilliant minds 
from AchArya RaamAnujA's time onwards to today . 
What I am going to say is hence nothing new . 
Different AchArya paramparais have taken different 
positions . I was explaining the view of
Swamy Desikan . Yet , there is a way that bridges 
the nirhEthuka KrupA and sahEthuka KrupA. 

The quick answer to your query is that BhagavAn 
out of His krupA directs the Jeevan to a sadAchAryan 
and the Prapatthi done thru that SadAchAryan results 
in the Lord's acceptance of that Prapatthi. SadAchaaryan
essentially prepares the jeevan with sadupadEsam
on Tathtva Thrayam , performs upadEsams on
the three manthrAs and offers that " prepared" jeevan
back to the owner. Thus the Lord as Sarva rakshakan , 
Sahaja Suhruth , Sarvajn~an , Sarva SakthimAn and 
avAptha samastha kaaman has a dual role here to play 
without contradiction to His nirhEthuka KrupA.
Spontaneous grace of the Lord is thus intertwined
with the minimal human effort that precedes it.
The usual analogy given is the spontaneous flow of
Mother's milk and the minimal effort on the part of
the infant to gain it .

To avoid any thought of arbitrariness and 
partiality ( Vaishamya NairguNya DhOsham ), 
Our Lord accepts the vyAjam of Prapatthi 
to shower His abundant grace . The opportunity 
to seek a sadAchAryan and engage in the path of
a spiritual discipline is provided by the Lord 
Himself in rcognition of good and meritorious 
deed performed by the jeevan consciously 
or otherwise . Our Lord's grace is recognized here
as the prime cause (pradhAna hEthu ) and Prapatthi
is viewed as the accessory cause (SahakAri KaaraNam).
The vyAja of Prapatthi is the link/bridge between
the two kinds of KrupA.

The third verse of NyAsa Dasakam of Swami Desiakn
has been my guiding light in these matters as pointed
out by my AchAryan, who has placed aatma-rakshA-bharam
at the Thiruvadi of MaalOlan : 

SvAmi svasEsham svavasam sva-bharathvEna nirbharam
svadhattha-svadhiyA svArTam svasmin nyasyathi maam svayam

This powerful slOkam emphasizing Saathvika ThyAgam 
consisting of the three parts ( Karthruthva ,
MamathA and Phala ThyAgams) underlines the following
important points pertinent to NyAsa VidhyA or Prapatthi
yOgam:

1. SrIman NaarAyaNan is the Supreme Lord of all (SvAmi).

2. I am Your bonded servant/adimai (Sva-sEsham).

3. I am controlled by You (sva-vasam).

4. You have blessed me with the Jn~Anam about You
(Sva-dhattha sva-dhiyA)." You have enabled me 
to know Your nature.You have endowed me with 
the capacity to think."

5. SvArTam nirbharam sva-bharathvEna Svayam Svasmin
nyasyathi ( " You Yourself have made me surrender
myself to You for Your own pleasure with the responsibility
of protecting it and getting rid of that burden from me"). 


The Fourteenth slOkam of SrI SaraNAgathi DhIpikai 
echos some of the thoughts of the above NyAsa Dasakam
slOkam .

SrImath Azhagiya Singar ThiruvadigaLE SaraNam ,
Oppiliappan Koil VaradAchAri SadagOpan 

----------------------End Quote ------------------------------

For this I posted another one proving from swAmi dEsikars' works 
itself that his views are same as that of thennAchArya sampradAya 
views.

-----------------------Quote 3-----------------------------------
srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha
srImadh varavara munayE namaha.

Dear srImAn Sadagopan swamy.

First let me reciprocate the Panguni Utthiram greetings to you. Thank 
you for your blessings on this holy day. I thank you very much for 
the immediate and elaborate reply. I still have that original doubt. 
The analogy of the mother's milk flow to the baby sucking it fits 
very well. But my doubt is that, do you say, the jeevAtmA has a 
little svAthanthryam on his/her part to do something so that it 
becomes a pretext for Sriman nArAyan to grant him/her the mOksham? 

If that is so, what actually the jeevAthmA is doing on his part. You 
have clearly stated that Sriman nArAyaNan shows a sadhAchAryan to the 
jeevAthmA and from there the sadhAchAryan takes the jeevAthmA to the 
point of doing prapatti and actually helps him in doing it. If that 
is the case, the seed is sowed by emberumAn only and once the seed is 
sown, it is natural on the part of the jeevAthmA to proceed in just 
the same way as the plants grow.However, if you are to say that, just 
sowing is not enough and someone has to water the plant, please note 
that, here the watering is done by the sadhAchAryan and no effort is 
needed on the part of the plant. But when the plant is watered 
properly it is natural for it to grow. So the plant is actually doing 
nothing and that is the position of jeevAthmA. Again superimposing 
this analysis on the krupa issue, please note that Thirumazhsaii 
AzhwAr in his Thirucchanda viruttham, says that emberumAn is capable 
of turning the back the jeevAthmA into wrong ways, if He wishes and
this is due to His nirankusa swAthanthriyam.

pAsuram 85: 
nacharAvaNaikkidandha nAdha! pAdha pOdhinil
vaittha sindhai vAnguvitthu neenguvikka nee inam
meitthan vallaiyAdhalAl aRindhanan nin mAyamE
uiytthu nin mayakkinil mayakkal ennai mAyanE

[AzhwAr says, "vaittha sindhai vAnguvithhu". This means He is capable 
to taking back the thoughts (about Him) that He has given to the 
AzhwAr (and hence the jeevAthmA) and also "neenguvitthu", meaning, 
completely getting rid off. His capability is expressed by the 
words " meitthan vallai" (surely you can). Finally says by doing this 
He is mesmerising (mayakkinil) him (AzhwAr) and hence "please do not 
do this to me"].

This pAsuram clearly, without any sibling of doubts in one's mind, 
brings out the "nirankusa swAthanthriyam" of emberumAn. So if He can 
change the thoughts as per His wish as per the above pAsuram, what is 
the need for Him to expect anything at all from the jeevAthmA to 
bestow His grace. So it seems that, it is only emberumAn who out of 
His own wish and sankalpa & kAruNyam and krupA, takes the jeevAthmA 
on the right path and hence give the salvation. 

On the other hand, if, as you said, He bestows this grace on the 
jeevAthmA, only based on his past good deeds according to the karma 
theory, then it is again a shortcoming on the part of emberumAn. This 
time it is on His guNA of "nirankusa swAthanthriyam" (Unfettered 
independence). This attribute of emberumAn is one of the main 
attributes glorified by all our poorvAchAryAs. As said above, if He 
is to bestow the grace, based on karma theory, then He will be only 
called as "sAstra vasyan" (bound by sAstrAs) and not "nirankusa
swathanthran". Well, one may say that, the sAstrAs were created by 
Him, so there is nothing wrong if He follows it. Please note, there 
is nothing wrong if He "follows" it, but it cannot be that He is 
bound by it. As all of us know, He created the sAstrAs, basically as 
a guideline for us to lead a peaceful life. So He cannot be bound by 
the sAstrAs. 

Also, the nyAsa dasakam slOka which you have cited very clearly 
proves that there is no independant effort on the part of the 
jeevAthmA to earn His grace. Please note that the slOkA ends with the 
arterious words "nyasyathi mAm svayam" ("You" make me surrender to 
you). So how is it that the jeevAthmA is doing something at all on 
his part to attain His grace. 

Recently I was reading a book by Sri P.B Annangarachariar swamy in 
which he has quoted from MunivAhana bhOgam of swAmy dEsikar, the 
following. In the avathArikai, swAmy dEsikar says "kAraNa vasthu 
innadhenRu aRudhiyida mudiyAdha krupaiyinAlE......". Very clearly 
swAmy dEsikar says, that there is no reason for His grace. So how is 
it that some thing on the part of the jeevAthmA is required to 
receive His grace. I ask this question, as you have stated this as 
swAmy dEsikar's view. Maybe if there is a different interpretation to 
the above avathArikai, please enlighten me about it.

Request you to kindly enlighten me on the above. 

AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam
adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan,
Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh
------------------------End Quote ------------------------
I posted this message to the list on 29th March 2002. Then followed 
by another on 2nd April 2002

---------------------------Quote 4---------------------------

srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha
srImadh varavara munayE namaha

Dear srImAn Sadagopan swamy,

While I await your clarification on the below matter, another thought 
came into my mind about it. Though at the outset, the mother-child 
analogy looks fit enough for some act on the part of the jeevAthmA, 
this is the one which will very clearly prove against it. 

When the child is born, who is teaching the child to suck the milk 
and how are they teaching. Does the mother teach the child? No. The 
child by nature does this job of sucking the milk. This is exactly 
the position of the jeevAthmA before ajnyAnA pervades him. Like the 
sucking is natural for the child, the knowledge that the jeevAthmA is 
a servant and slave of paramAtmA is very natural for the jeevAthmA 
and indeed it is one of the attributes of the jeevAthmA. Also does 
the child suck the milk, because it knows that, otherwise it will 
die? No. Again it is its nature or swaroopam. The child does not know 
that the action of sucking the milk is an upAya for its life. Like 
wise doing prapatti in its true form as "tvamEva upAya bhoothO me 
bhava ithi prArthanA mathi: saraNAgathi" (that is the prayer for 
emberumAn Himself to be upAyam is called prapatti) is natural or 
swaroopam for the jeevAthmA and it cannot be construed as a 
sAdhyOpAyam. On part of the mother (or emberumAn at the macro level), 
whether the child asks for milk (by way of crying) or not, she knows 
the right time to feed the child as she has utmost krupA over the 
child and anything to the child will be a loss to her. So here 
emberumAn knows when to feed the jeevAtmA with His grace and does it 
at the right time. When the flow of grace is there all that jeevAtmA 
has to do is to accept it . Again, for example a grown up child 
(grown enough to do some mischief but still on breast feeding) makes 
a mistake, does the mother make the child starve, especially if it is 
only her milk which is the diet for the child. No way. This is the 
kAruNyam of the mother towards her child and the same on part of 
emberumAn towards the chEtana. Here it is only the grace of emberumAn 
that can save the chEtana and the emberumAn knows this, even if the 
chEtana is not aware of this.

Based on all the above, the analogy of Mother-Child only goes to 
prove that there is nothing on the part of the chEtana that he can do 
as an upAya to attain the grace of emberumAn. Request you to kindly 
clarify on the above lines too.

AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam
adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan
Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh
----------------------------End Quote----------------------------

To this, there is no reply till date. Do you think from the above, 
that they can answer. Instead, they are calling us fanatics and other 
things.

Rest assured. Those who believe, AzhwArs, have to be the thennAchAryA 
way. I will continue to post some more messages like this as a sort 
of FACT-FILES about our sampradhAyam. This is for everyone to 
understand what is going on.

Request your feedbacks and additional inputs to uphold the above 
points.

AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam
adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan
Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh




azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam


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