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srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha
srImadh varavara munayE namaha

Dear Sri Dasarathi,

First of all what is the use of this Varnasrama Dharma? If we dwell a 
little, we will find that the Varnashrama was created, based entirely 
on the profession. Later it emanated to be hereditary. That's all the 
truth. You can see this even today. Almost, in the last 50 years 
atleast, there is trend that the doctor's son is a doctor, engineer's 
son is an engineer etc. Also there are certain unwritten rule 
(dharma) how a doctor should behave and so do the engineers. If a 
society can have a pattern in 50 years, we are talking about a 
practice that is much more than 5000 yrs old. So, the dharma of 
Varnashrama is only a set of rules on the behavioural aspects.

Sticking to Varnashrama is fine but I believe, the whole point of 
discussion is to respect fellow Srivaishnavas irrespective of their 
Caste or Creed. 

Also I am unable to agree with the "atma guna poorthi" aspect. Why 
should we try to respect only those Bhagavathas who have "atma guna 
poorthi"? First, are all the Brahmin Srivaishnavas having - "atma 
guna poorthi"? Very difficult to answer. Barring a few, how many of 
us worship nobody other than Sriman Narayanan. The basic "atma guna" 
or characteristics of a SriVaishnavaite (sEshathvam and 
pArathanthriyam). I know of many Brahmin Srivaishnavites, who to this 
date, claim that they belong to a very high caste and all, but side 
by side go to some Amman temple or Siva temple for a "nErthi" on the 
pretext that they were their "kuladeivam". How many such fallacies do 
we have? I am not saying all here, but definitely a whole lot.

1. I would say, please respect any one and any thing that 
has "thirumAn" on them or it. 

2. Don't humiliate them. Fold your hands with heads down, on seeing a 
Srivaishnava, even if he is an arrogant one. We are no less either. 

3. When great Acharyas like Sri Alavandar can say "aparAdha sahasra 
bhAjanam, pathitham ...."(I have committed thousands of sins and am a 
pathithan" and "amaryAdha: shudra: chalamathi: asooya: ......" (I am 
arrogant showing a lot of disrespect to others and so on), can we 
ever say that we even qualify to talk about the "atma guna". Sorry 
this is not meant as an offence at you, but a generic note.

I get tears in my eyes when we say "kArEi karuNai irAmAnusA...". Why 
do we equate his kindness to the clouds? AmudhanAr had the same tears 
in his eyes, after hearing the news of Emperumanar's kindness by 
letting out the rahasya of Thirumanthiram so that every other being 
can go to Paramapadham. Here again, his target was everyone and just 
about everyone irrespective of caste, creed etc. While we can't 
actually, shouldn't we atleast try to emulate our great Acharya.

This is the best respect that we can show to a fellow bhAgavatha. 

AzhwAr emperumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam
adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan

Correction: In my earlier mail I wrote that Periya Nambi did anthima 
samskAram for viLAnchOla piLLai. It is not viLAnchOla piLLai but 
mAranEr nambi. Sorry for this confusion.


--- In ramanuja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Ellayavilli Dasarathy <epd40@...> 
wrote:
>
> Dear Ramanujam
> I correct my stance wrt vaishyas as pointed by you. Apart from 
that, could some thing more be dwelled upon srivaishanava kula 
poorthi.
> I want to highlight this at this juncture particulary for atma 
gnana and not sarira sampanda we intend to have with fellow 
srivaishnavas.
> What I mean by this is, restrictions on varnasrama dharma are not 
to be refuted rather, when it comes to exchange of atma guna poorthi, 
> what should be the stance of a srivaishnava. A practical question. 
Today a handful of few might have knowledge on srivachanabushanam 
either because of its greatness or because of a reader's biasedness 
on it, since it was being commentaried by our acharyan (Maamunigal). 
> But the overall is, 
> Do our vaishnava kulam shows the same strength in atma guna poorthi 
towards a bhagavatha when he is having sampradaya gnana in thoughts 
and deeds
> Question might be, today's srivaishnavas are not like emperumanar 
or pillai uranga villi dasar or maraner nambi so we cant find whether 
a bhagavata is having atma guna poorthi. Hence lets all stick on to, 
varnasrama even in sampradaya pravachanam and samvadams (discourses 
and discussions).
> But the catch to this point is, 
> we accord the same respect of emperumanar/ 72 simasanadhipadis, to 
the current emperumanar sthanams, as well as acharya purushas just 
because of thier lineage whereas,
> a srivaishnava nigraham occurs (no exchange of atma guna / bhrama 
gnana) if he fails to fall within the bhramana kulam
> To worsen this, in the name of aacharam various standards have 
evolved within groups of srivaishnavam. Here the objective is,
> 1) Not to mocker at our existing reality since I also belong to the 
part of reality (Srivaishnava kulam)
> but, try making the objective of sri vaishnava guna poorthi 
expected by Manavala maamunigal and Pillai lokacharyar a reality and 
truly not at the cost of ignoring manusmrithi or varnasrama and
> 2) To evolve a common acharam for both atma gunam and varnasramam
> So question boils down to
> Correct questions:
> 1) How to treat a srivaishnava sreshta who is full with atma guna 
poorthi irrespective of thier belongings
> 2) How to exchange atma gnana with them
> 3) What would be the standard for aacharam for a srivaishnava 
abiding with Varnasramam.
> And the question never intends to (Wrong Question)
> 1) How to do inter caste marriages
> 2) How to dine equally with all everywhere. 
> because, marriage involves anushtana poorthi for a srivaishnava 
(Gruhastashramam) and just not emotional or physical attachment
> Please let us have the  right questions (Correct Questions 1 2 and 
3) and not the (Wrong Question) as objectives.
>  adiyen
> Ramanuja dasan Dasarathy Elayavilli Ponnappan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Ramanujam Varada Srinivasa Thatta <acharyatvsr@...>
> To: Dasarathy <ramanuja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Wednesday, 11 October, 2006 11:02:26 AM
> Subject: RE: [sri ramanuja] Caste Creed and Varna in Srivaishnavam
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
>     
>             Please do some more deeper study. Vaysyas are Upaveetas 
and can learn and recite Vedas.
> 
> Ramanujam.  
> 
> 
> 
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- -
> 
> > To: ramanuja@yahoogroup s.com
> 
> > From: epd40@yahoo. co.in
> 
> > Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 05:54:06 +0000
> 
> > Subject: [sri ramanuja] Caste Creed and Varna in Srivaishnavam
> 
> > 
> 
> > Dear All,
> 
> > A subtle thought process in the lineage of a question being 
raised by
> 
> > one of my kin. Question pertains to varnasrama in Srivaishnavam.
> 
> > I had few thoughts with respect to the question. I request our 
people
> 
> > to  clarify, correct any mistakes with pramanam for the answers I 
had
> 
> > given.
> 
> > 
> 
> > Question by my Kin:
> 
> > 
> 
> > "The below thing I wrote when I was a part ramanuja.org discussion
> 
> > list. I didn't get any answer for this. Still I am searching the
> 
> > answer for this. Do anyone of you have?
> 
> > 
> 
> > Respected Sir,
> 
> > kulanthaangu saathikaL naalilum keezizinthu,
> 
> > etthanai nalanthaa nilaathasaN daaLasaN daaLarka Laakilum,
> 
> > valanthaangu sakkarath thaNNal maNivaNNaR kaaLenRuL kalanthaar,
> 
> > adiyaar thammadi yaarem madikaLE.
> 
> > If an individual is a devotee of Lord Vishnu, then, even if he 
belongs
> 
> > to a lowly caste, you must consider his devotee's devotee as your
> 
> > lord. I'm quoting this paasuram from tiruvaymoli. I have quoted 
the
> 
> > explaination from our own web site www.ramanuja. org.
> 
> > 
> 
> > Whatever i understood from the above paasuram according to my
> 
> > intellect is that if a person is a devotee of shriman naarayan to
> 
> > whatever castes he/she belongs should be given enough respect. 
Then
> 
> > why in our sampradaayam it is so that in the name of achaaram we
> 
> > discriminate among our own people. Even if they are great 
devotees of
> 
> > lord naarayan they are not given enough respect just because they
> 
> > belong to low caste. I have seen many people who are brahmins and 
shri
> 
> > vaishnava but they do not follow any rules and regulations of what
> 
> > shri vaishnava should follow.But even then they get respect in the
> 
> > society as well as by high intellectuals since they belong to high
> 
> > caste. Should it be not like this that the discrimination should 
be
> 
> > made only on this basis whether a particular person is a devotee 
of
> 
> > shriman naarayan or not rather than caste.Is our sampradaayam
> 
> > emphasize on casteism. I also felt that casteism is one of the 
main
> 
> > reason that our sampradaayam' s message is not widely spread. If 
by
> 
> > mistake i have written something wrong due to ignorance then i am
> 
> > extremely sorry for that.
> 
> > 
> 
> > with regards
> 
> > charchita
> 
> > 
> 
> > Answer:
> 
> > Dear Charchita
> 
> > The message is apt but the concept of varnasrama should or could 
not
> 
> > be confused here.
> 
> > Varnasrama Dictates Rules For
> 
> > 1) Individual's Work in society
> 
> >      a) Bhramins - Bhramanosya Mookam aaseeth. Bhramins come from 
face
> 
> > of vishnu. Let them be responsible for learning Vedas, chanting 
it,
> 
> > and spreading it. By no means they can enter
> 
> >       i) Trade
> 
> >       ii) Warfare
> 
> >       iii) Cultivation or any means of procurement
> 
> >   b) Kshatriya - Baaho rajanya krutaha: By the muscle power let 
the
> 
> > rajans rule the world. They should
> 
> >      i) Conquer and control teritories
> 
> >     ii) Learn Vedas and not teach / preach them
> 
> >     iii) Be the sole properitor of wealthiest items in his 
teritory
> 
> >  c) Vaysya - Vaysyo Dhana samridhasyad - Let the merchants trade 
and
> 
> > earn money. Let them use thier strength in thighs to travel far 
off
> 
> > and bring money.
> 
> > i) They cannot learn/preach vedas
> 
> > d) Shudra - Shudra sukam avapnuyaad - Let the fourth caste people 
do
> 
> > the job of line men, agriculture, hunting and all work of building
> 
> > assisting kings in army. Thereby they are not directly 
responsible for
> 
> > any decisions but enable decision makers to fulfill the objective 
of
> 
> > society. They can
> 
> > a) Have multiple marriages, have food without bath, can kill 
animals
> 
> > and move from places to places.
> 
> > Now the key point is Narayana bhakta
> 
> > He who is intrested in bhramagnana is above these 4 castes which 
come
> 
> > by birth and has to be respected alteast equivalent to vishnu,
> 
> > If currently bhramins/ sri vaishanavas are not doing it its 
solely the
> 
> > fault of the individuals and not that of the sampradaya
> 
> > Instances:
> 
> > Ramanuja before bath used to hold hands of mudaliyandan (Bhramana
> 
> > sreshta)and later after bath hold the hand of pillai uranga vali 
dasar
> 
> > (4th caste person)
> 
> > Nampillai called one dasar to submit the food he prepared for 
perumal
> 
> > fearing the atma guna poorthi of his second wife.
> 
> > Lot of instances where disciples were of 4th caste but they were
> 
> > deciding people of sampradaya,
> 
> > Our great Acharyan Manavala maamunigal got the greatest of 
rahasya Sri
> 
> > vachana bushana from the mouth of an acharya called koora 
kulothama
> 
> > dasar who by his birth is the care taker of burial ground (Sandala
> 
> > vargam). Note: Please correct the name of our poorvacharya who 
did the
> 
> > kalakshepam of Srivachana bhushanam to maamunigal.
> 
> > Points:
> 
> > We have to take sree pada theertham from the lotus feet of any sri
> 
> > vaishnava of any caste if he shows atma guna poorthi. abiding the
> 
> > faith on manavala maamunigal and ramanuja if we fail to do so we 
dont
> 
> > call ourself sri vaishnava and because of hypocrats pure 
sampradayam
> 
> > is getting dis illusioned as the caste oriented system. 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > Azhvar EmberumAnAr JeeyAr ThiruvadigalE Saranam 
> 
> > http://www.vedics. net
> 
> > 
> 
> >  
> 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
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