srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha srImadh varavara munayE namaha Dear All, For some time now, I have been a passive follower of this list after my initial contributions. But this mail from Smt Charchita, made me think that I have to reply. The question posed by Smt Charchita is very correct and straight forward. Instead of giving tangential replies, let us admit that we are discriminating. This is a fact. No amount of examples on the origins of Varnasrama dharma will justify this. Just think about this. How many of us bow our heads and fold our hands, in front of a Non-Brahmin Srivaishnavite (They are called Bhagavathas in ThiruvallikkEni and Kanchipuram) even before they do it to us. I see a very handful of us doing this. Smt Charchita, your question is very correct. I support your views. How many discriminations, in our own Srivaishnava society? Within the Brahmin Srivaishnavas, they say that a particular family is of lower status than another. How absurd? Well just to summarize an answer, we brahmins dont want to let go of their ego. We all talk a lot about Ramanujar holding Pillai Urangaavilli Daasar's hands after bath, Bhattar taking the Sripaadha theertham of a person belonging to a fourth varna, Periya Nambigal doing the anthima samskAram for Vilaanchola Pillai et al. But in reality we don't want to do it. It is nothing but ego. Truly, there are a whole lot of Non-Brahmin Srivaishnavites, who knows the Prabhandams totally compared to a Brahmin Srivaishnavite. But still they will be treated as a low caste fellow. Shame on our ego. Instead of taking the meaning of this pAsuram directly, we try to twist it to suit our whims and fancies. It is not only this pAsuram, there are pAsurams from ThirumAlai by Thondaradippodi AzhwAr. They also talk about this in the same vein. 1) "amaravOr angam ARum...." 2) "pazhudilA vozhugalAtRu.." are nothing but a few of such pAsurams. I believe, it is high time we let go of our "yAdhAnum paTRi neengum viradham" attitude in this matter and give them the due respect. Finally, I can say only one thing. Anybody who discrimates, based on caste, amongst the Srivaishnavas, doesn't have any right to talk about AzhwArs and AcharyAs and hence their work. This is my humble, if not arrogant, opinion. AzhwAr emperumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh --- In ramanuja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Ramanujam Varada Srinivasa Thatta" <acharyatvsr@...> wrote: > > Please do some more deeper study. Vaysyas are Upaveetas and can learn and recite Vedas. > Ramanujam. > > > > > ---------------------------------------- > > To: ramanuja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > > From: epd40@... > > Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 05:54:06 +0000 > > Subject: [sri ramanuja] Caste Creed and Varna in Srivaishnavam > > > > Dear All, > > A subtle thought process in the lineage of a question being raised by > > one of my kin. Question pertains to varnasrama in Srivaishnavam. > > I had few thoughts with respect to the question. I request our people > > to clarify, correct any mistakes with pramanam for the answers I had > > given. > > > > Question by my Kin: > > > > "The below thing I wrote when I was a part ramanuja.org discussion > > list. I didn't get any answer for this. Still I am searching the > > answer for this. Do anyone of you have? > > > > Respected Sir, > > kulanthaangu saathikaL naalilum keezizinthu, > > etthanai nalanthaa nilaathasaN daaLasaN daaLarka Laakilum, > > valanthaangu sakkarath thaNNal maNivaNNaR kaaLenRuL kalanthaar, > > adiyaar thammadi yaarem madikaLE. > > If an individual is a devotee of Lord Vishnu, then, even if he belongs > > to a lowly caste, you must consider his devotee's devotee as your > > lord. I'm quoting this paasuram from tiruvaymoli. I have quoted the > > explaination from our own web site www.ramanuja.org. > > > > Whatever i understood from the above paasuram according to my > > intellect is that if a person is a devotee of shriman naarayan to > > whatever castes he/she belongs should be given enough respect. Then > > why in our sampradaayam it is so that in the name of achaaram we > > discriminate among our own people. Even if they are great devotees of > > lord naarayan they are not given enough respect just because they > > belong to low caste. I have seen many people who are brahmins and shri > > vaishnava but they do not follow any rules and regulations of what > > shri vaishnava should follow.But even then they get respect in the > > society as well as by high intellectuals since they belong to high > > caste. Should it be not like this that the discrimination should be > > made only on this basis whether a particular person is a devotee of > > shriman naarayan or not rather than caste.Is our sampradaayam > > emphasize on casteism. I also felt that casteism is one of the main > > reason that our sampradaayam's message is not widely spread. If by > > mistake i have written something wrong due to ignorance then i am > > extremely sorry for that. > > > > with regards > > charchita > > > > Answer: > > Dear Charchita > > The message is apt but the concept of varnasrama should or could not > > be confused here. > > Varnasrama Dictates Rules For > > 1) Individual's Work in society > > a) Bhramins - Bhramanosya Mookam aaseeth. Bhramins come from face > > of vishnu. Let them be responsible for learning Vedas, chanting it, > > and spreading it. By no means they can enter > > i) Trade > > ii) Warfare > > iii) Cultivation or any means of procurement > > b) Kshatriya - Baaho rajanya krutaha: By the muscle power let the > > rajans rule the world. They should > > i) Conquer and control teritories > > ii) Learn Vedas and not teach / preach them > > iii) Be the sole properitor of wealthiest items in his teritory > > c) Vaysya - Vaysyo Dhana samridhasyad - Let the merchants trade and > > earn money. Let them use thier strength in thighs to travel far off > > and bring money. > > i) They cannot learn/preach vedas > > d) Shudra - Shudra sukam avapnuyaad - Let the fourth caste people do > > the job of line men, agriculture, hunting and all work of building > > assisting kings in army. Thereby they are not directly responsible for > > any decisions but enable decision makers to fulfill the objective of > > society. They can > > a) Have multiple marriages, have food without bath, can kill animals > > and move from places to places. > > Now the key point is Narayana bhakta > > He who is intrested in bhramagnana is above these 4 castes which come > > by birth and has to be respected alteast equivalent to vishnu, > > If currently bhramins/ sri vaishanavas are not doing it its solely the > > fault of the individuals and not that of the sampradaya > > Instances: > > Ramanuja before bath used to hold hands of mudaliyandan (Bhramana > > sreshta)and later after bath hold the hand of pillai uranga vali dasar > > (4th caste person) > > Nampillai called one dasar to submit the food he prepared for perumal > > fearing the atma guna poorthi of his second wife. > > Lot of instances where disciples were of 4th caste but they were > > deciding people of sampradaya, > > Our great Acharyan Manavala maamunigal got the greatest of rahasya Sri > > vachana bushana from the mouth of an acharya called koora kulothama > > dasar who by his birth is the care taker of burial ground (Sandala > > vargam). Note: Please correct the name of our poorvacharya who did the > > kalakshepam of Srivachana bhushanam to maamunigal. > > Points: > > We have to take sree pada theertham from the lotus feet of any sri > > vaishnava of any caste if he shows atma guna poorthi. abiding the > > faith on manavala maamunigal and ramanuja if we fail to do so we dont > > call ourself sri vaishnava and because of hypocrats pure sampradayam > > is getting dis illusioned as the caste oriented system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Azhvar EmberumAnAr JeeyAr ThiruvadigalE Saranam > > http://www.vedics.net > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Share your special moments by uploading 500 photos per month to Windows Live Spaces > http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0100000001msn/direct/01/? href=http://spaces.live.com/signup.aspx > Azhvar EmberumAnAr JeeyAr ThiruvadigalE Saranam http://www.vedics.net Yahoo! 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