Participles in 1Cor 11,4

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Peter Streitenberger
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Participles in 1Cor 11,4

Post by Peter Streitenberger »

Dear Friends,

πᾶς ἀνὴρ προσευχόμενος ἢ προφητεύων κατὰ κεφαλῆς ἔχων καταισχύνει τὴν κεφαλὴν αὐτοῦ (1Cor 11,4)

Are the first two participles adjectival or adverbial and are they necessary for the result of the verse: that means is the shame only and only if prayer and prophecy is occurring. I think the shamefulnes lies in the κατὰ κεφαλῆς ἔχων (modifiying the main verb καταισχύνει) and praying and prophecying is not a necessary bypart that makes the idea of the main verb necessary (adjecitval). Am I right ? Thank you again !

Yours
Peter, Germany
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Re: Participles in 1Cor 11,4

Post by cwconrad »

Peter Streitenberger wrote:Dear Friends,

πᾶς ἀνὴρ προσευχόμενος ἢ προφητεύων κατὰ κεφαλῆς ἔχων καταισχύνει τὴν κεφαλὴν αὐτοῦ (1Cor 11,4)

Are the first two participles adjectival or adverbial and are they necessary for the result of the verse: that means is the shame only and only if prayer and prophecy is occurring. I think the shamefulnes lies in the κατὰ κεφαλῆς ἔχων (modifiying the main verb καταισχύνει) and praying and prophecying is not a necessary bypart that makes the idea of the main verb necessary (adjecitval). Am I right ? Thank you again !
I'll bite on this one; I think that these participles are adverbial-circumstantial here and I think that [πᾶς ἀνὴρ + participle] = [ὅστις ἂν ---ῃ]. Nor do I think that the verse is asserting that any male wearing a hat or head-covering at any time or on any occasion brings shame upon his head; rather it's specifically when he prefers either of these actions with his head covered.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
Peter Streitenberger
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Re: Participles in 1Cor 11,4

Post by Peter Streitenberger »

Dear Carl,

thank you ! If we equal the shamefulness with "ἀνὴρ μὲν ἐὰν κομᾷ, ἀτιμία αὐτῷ ἐστίν" (14), then that would be a general truth. And if praying and prophecying is occuring additionally that shamefulness gets especially obvious, but is not a necessary moment by itself. That means adverbial κατὰ κεφαλῆς ἔχων alone meets the condition of bringing shame on his head (if...then). Maybe because his head is covered (by long hair let's say).

To the meaning of "something down from his head" a passage:
ἐρυθρὸν αὐτῷ τὸ ῥάμφος ἐστί, καὶ κατὰ τῆς κεφαλῆς ὥσπερ τινὰ πῖλον ἔχει, ὁποίους οἱ τοξόται Πέρσαι φοροῦσιν· (Dionysius Perieg., Ixeuticon sive De aucupio (paraphrasis) (olim sub auctore Eutecnio).
Here something from the head of a bird grows down.

Then:
αὐτὸς δὲ περιεβάλετο στολὴν ἱερὰν καὶ κίδαριν καὶ διάδημα κατὰ τῆς κεφαλῆς ἔχον κέρατα διάλιθα. προκαθίσας δὲ ἐπὶ θρόνου ὑψηλοῦ ἐκέλευσε τὸν Αἴσωπον εἰσελθεῖν (Vitae Aesopi, Vita W (vita Aesopi Westermanniana) (recensio 2).
Here it is probably the hair growing from the head.


Thank you for all further thoughts !
Peter, Germany
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Re: Participles in 1Cor 11,4

Post by cwconrad »

Peter Streitenberger wrote:Dear Carl,

thank you ! If we equal the shamefulness with "ἀνὴρ μὲν ἐὰν κομᾷ, ἀτιμία αὐτῷ ἐστίν" (14), then that would be a general truth. And if praying and prophecying is occuring additionally that shamefulness gets especially obvious, but is not a necessary moment by itself. That means adverbial κατὰ κεφαλῆς ἔχων alone meets the condition of bringing shame on his head (if...then). Maybe because his head is covered (by long hair let's say).

To the meaning of "something down from his head" a passage:
ἐρυθρὸν αὐτῷ τὸ ῥάμφος ἐστί, καὶ κατὰ τῆς κεφαλῆς ὥσπερ τινὰ πῖλον ἔχει, ὁποίους οἱ τοξόται Πέρσαι φοροῦσιν· (Dionysius Perieg., Ixeuticon sive De aucupio (paraphrasis) (olim sub auctore Eutecnio).
Here something from the head of a bird grows down.

Then:
αὐτὸς δὲ περιεβάλετο στολὴν ἱερὰν καὶ κίδαριν καὶ διάδημα κατὰ τῆς κεφαλῆς ἔχον κέρατα διάλιθα. προκαθίσας δὲ ἐπὶ θρόνου ὑψηλοῦ ἐκέλευσε τὸν Αἴσωπον εἰσελθεῖν (Vitae Aesopi, Vita W (vita Aesopi Westermanniana) (recensio 2).
Here it is probably the hair growing from the head.
I don't think we should suppose that κατὰ τῆς κεφαλῆς ἔχειν means the same thing as κομᾶν -- or that κομᾶν is an instance of κατὰ τῆς κεφαλῆς ἔχειν. Cf.BDAG, ἔχω
4. to carry/bear as accessory or part of a whole, have on, wear, of clothing, weapons, etc. (Hom. et al.; LXX; TestAbr B p. 114, 22 [Stone p. 76]) τὸ ἔνδυμα Mt 3:4; 22:12 (cp. ἔνδυσιν TestJob 25:7). κατὰ κεφαλῆς ἔχων w. τὶ to be supplied while he wears (a covering) on his head 1 Cor 11:4. ἔ. θώρακας Rv 9:9, 17. ἔ. μάχαιραν wear a sword (Jos., Ant. 6, 190) J 18:10. Sim. of trees ἔ. φύλλα have leaves Mk 11:13 (ApcSed. 8:8).
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
Peter Streitenberger
Posts: 224
Joined: June 3rd, 2011, 10:45 am

Re: Participles in 1Cor 11,4

Post by Peter Streitenberger »

Ok, thanks, Carl, please see the direct parallels, where KATA KEFALHS ECWN means that (long) hair grows from a head, an extra head covering is not mentioned at Paul.
"wears (a covering) on his head" seems therefore not fitting. KATA KEFALHS ECWN is used as indicating that something comes/growes down the head. That would meet the later reference of the long hair, wich is shameful for a man.
Yours
Peter
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Re: Participles in 1Cor 11,4

Post by cwconrad »

Peter Streitenberger wrote:Ok, thanks, Carl, please see the direct parallels, where KATA KEFALHS ECWN means that (long) hair grows from a head, an extra head covering is not mentioned at Paul.
"wears (a covering) on his head" seems therefore not fitting. KATA KEFALHS ECWN is used as indicating that something comes/growes down the head. That would meet the later reference of the long hair, wich is shameful for a man.
Peter Streitenberger wrote:To the meaning of "something down from his head" a passage:
ἐρυθρὸν αὐτῷ τὸ ῥάμφος ἐστί, καὶ κατὰ τῆς κεφαλῆς ὥσπερ τινὰ πῖλον ἔχει, ὁποίους οἱ τοξόται Πέρσαι φοροῦσιν· (Dionysius Perieg., Ixeuticon sive De aucupio (paraphrasis) (olim sub auctore Eutecnio).
Here something from the head of a bird grows down.

Then:
αὐτὸς δὲ περιεβάλετο στολὴν ἱερὰν καὶ κίδαριν καὶ διάδημα κατὰ τῆς κεφαλῆς ἔχον κέρατα διάλιθα. προκαθίσας δὲ ἐπὶ θρόνου ὑψηλοῦ ἐκέλευσε τὸν Αἴσωπον εἰσελθεῖν (Vitae Aesopi, Vita W (vita Aesopi Westermanniana) (recensio 2).
I’m sorry, Peter. I still cannot see that the expression κατὰ τῆς κεφαλῆς ἔχειν means effectively the same thing as κομᾶν, “to let hair flow down over one’s head”. Rather, I think that BDAG is right, and that there is either an explicit or implicit object of ἔχειν κατὰ τῆς κεφαλῆς.

In your first example above, I don’t have access to the whole passage in context, but it appears to be describing a bird known in my neighborhood as a “pileated woodpecker.” This long-bodied woodpecker has a bright red “cap” on its head (see the picture at http://birds.audubon.org/birds/pileated-woodpecker). The verb-phrase in question, κατὰ τῆς κεφαλῆς ὥσπερ τινὰ πῖλον ἔχει, does not show ἔχειν used absolutely but rather with an object, ὥσπερ τινὰ πῖλον, “a cap of sorts.”

In the second example too the verb ἔχειν has a direct object, this time explicit. Here κατα τῆς κεφαλῆς is to be construed with περιεβάλετο (“he wore on his head”), while ἔχον, the neuter participle, agrees with διάδημα and has as its own object κέρατα διάλιθα, “horns set with precious stones.”
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
Peter Streitenberger
Posts: 224
Joined: June 3rd, 2011, 10:45 am

Re: Participles in 1Cor 11,4

Post by Peter Streitenberger »

Dear Carl,

there is no object named at Paul in the beginning what exactly comes down from the head (KATA not EPI). But some verses later the "uncoverdness" of the women is placed against her having long hair. A man being covered is stated as shame and Paul writes that long hair is a shame for him. That's why some early christian writers regarded the cover of men as long hair and the uncoveredness of women as short hair.
ἣν κόμην ὠνόμασεν, ἣν ὅταν μὴ ἔχῃ Καταισχύνει τὴν κεφαλὴν ἑαυτῆς, καθώς φησιν ὁ ἀπόστολος. Gregorius Nyssenus (In Canticum canticorum (homiliae 15),
The Καταισχύνει of the head lays in having long (men) or short hair (woman).

«Ἀνὴρ οὐκ ὀφείλει κομᾶν, δόξα καὶ εἰκὼν θεοῦ ὑπάρχων».Epiphanius Scr. Eccl sees the κατακαλύπτεσθαι (being covered) of the man as having long hair. I've found a passage in a ancient Greek commentary on the Odysse that Odysseus war boldheaded and thus having his head not covered with hair.

We find that Pauls requests a suitable covering of the head, that would fit to hair, not to an extra covering, as that would be a covering of the hair (Paul distingues hair and head in this passage). At the end (V.15) Paul sees the long hair as suitable covering (Peribolaion) for the women. So the women has to be covered and the covering lays in her long hair. The man doesn't have to be covered and long hair is a shame for him.

Can we find common ground?
Yours
Peter
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Re: Participles in 1Cor 11,4

Post by cwconrad »

Peter Streitenberger wrote:Dear Carl,

there is no object named at Paul in the beginning what exactly comes down from the head (KATA not EPI). ...

Can we find common ground?
It would appear that we cannot. The texts that you cited with ἔχειν and κατὰ τῆς κομῆς, as I understand them, do not support the argument you are making. The text of 1 Cor 11:4 does not, as you have said, have an object, but I believe there's an implicit object, as BDAG s.v. ἔχω suggests:
4. to carry/bear as accessory or part of a whole, have on, wear, of clothing, weapons, etc. (Hom. et al.; LXX; TestAbr B p. 114, 22 [Stone p. 76]) τὸ ἔνδυμα Mt 3:4; 22:12 (cp. ἔνδυσιν TestJob 25:7). κατὰ κεφαλῆς ἔχων w. τὶ to be supplied while he wears (a covering) on his head 1 Cor 11:4.
It may well be, as you note, that the passage in 1 Cor was later interpreted so that κατὰ τῆς κεφαλῆς ἔχειν is identical in meaning with κομᾶν. But I see no necessity at all to understand the Pauline text that way. I think rather that Paul here is referring to a cap or hat -- some sort of external covering over the head.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
Peter Streitenberger
Posts: 224
Joined: June 3rd, 2011, 10:45 am

Re: Participles in 1Cor 11,4

Post by Peter Streitenberger »

Dear Carl,

ok, but Paul speaks of a covering of the head and discusses the hair extra, that means the head is not necesserily seen with the hair. The head should be covered, not necessarily the hair, which would require an extra hat or a veil then. So the most natural thing what comes down from a head is hair, and Paul is not mentioning any extra covering. At one passage he sees the long hair of the woman as subsitution or means for her covering.

The BDAG is a nice try to solve this riddle: "wears (a covering) on his head" -> I woulnd't expect "on" for KATA, the examples show that something is coming or growing down from the head, There is no hint for a extra covering and "wears" is too much in my view.

Chrysostomos writes:
Οὐκ εἶπε, Κεκαλυμμένος, ἀλλὰ, Κατὰ κεφαλῆς ἔχων, δεικνὺς ὅτι κἂν γυμνῇ εὔχηται τῇ κεφαλῇ, κόμην δὲ ἔχῃ, ἴσος ἐστὶ τῷ κεκαλυμμένῳ.
That means he would regard the long hair (later discussed by Paul) as something coming down (KATA) from the head, making the man's head "covered".

Agreed?
Yours
Peter, Germany
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Re: Participles in 1Cor 11,4

Post by cwconrad »

Peter, I think it is quite clear that we are not in agreement with each other on this matter. A hat or cap covers the crown of the wearer's head, in whole or in part, extending from the highest point of one's head down over the brow and around the temples. That, I take it, is what is meant by ἔχων (τι) κατὰ τῆς κεφαλῆς. Whether Paul has in mind something comparable to the Talmudic kippah that was later also called in Yiddish a yarmulke, I don't know, but I do not believe he's talking about the hair that grows naturally on a man's head. My reference to the understanding of the text set forth in BDAG does not mean that I consider that indisputable evidence for my viewpoint -- but it means that I'm not alone in understanding this text as I do.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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