ἔξω βαλεῖν v. ἐκβαλεῖν v. ἐκβαλεῖν ἔξω

Stephen Hughes
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ἔξω βαλεῖν v. ἐκβαλεῖν v. ἐκβαλεῖν ἔξω

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Does anyone have any idea what the difference between ἔξω ἔβαλον and ἐκβαλεῖν and ἐκβαλεῖν ἔξω is?
Matthew 13:48 wrote:συνέλεξαν τὰ καλὰ εἰς ἀγγεῖα, τὰ δὲ σαπρὰ ἔξω ἔβαλον.
This appears that they that they were either put (together) into the container with the others, or put outside it (having never been in it). But,
1 John 4:18 wrote:Φόβος οὐκ ἔστιν ἐν τῇ ἀγάπῃ, ἀλλ’ ἡ τελεία ἀγάπη ἔξω βάλλει τὸν φόβον, ὅτι ὁ φόβος κόλασιν ἔχει·
appears to refer to ὁ φόβος which was inside, then was thrown out.

In the case of,
John 9:34 wrote:Ἀπεκρίθησαν καὶ εἶπον αὐτῷ, Ἐν ἁμαρτίαις σὺ ἐγεννήθης ὅλος, καὶ σὺ διδάσκεις ἡμᾶς; Καὶ ἐξέβαλον αὐτὸν ἔξω.
it seems to be emphatic, but perhaps it is actually explicit, as if ἔξω were εἰς τὸ ἔξω τοῦ ναοῦ, where Jesus found him.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
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Re: ἔξω βαλεῖν v. ἐκβαλεῖν v. ἐκβαλεῖν ἔξω

Post by cwconrad »

I have no inkling of an answer, but I'm wondering whether these various expressions with βαλεῖν and ἔξω are Semitizing. ἔξω βαλεῖν doesn't sound to my mind's inner ear like a native Greek expression. My feeling is that the more natural Greek might be something like εἰς τὰ ἔξω βαλεῖν, but I don't trust that feeling very far.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
Stephen Hughes
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Re: Non-NT examples of ἔξω and βαλεῖν

Post by Stephen Hughes »

cwconrad wrote:I have no inkling of an answer, but I'm wondering whether these various expressions with βαλεῖν and ἔξω are Semitizing. ἔξω βαλεῖν doesn't sound to my mind's inner ear like a native Greek expression. My feeling is that the more natural Greek might be something like εἰς τὰ ἔξω βαλεῖν, but I don't trust that feeling very far.
Yes, seeing all three of them together is like buying camera equipment in some unscrupulous establishments. You see three different models, while listening to a store keeper haggling over the price of something - but you are not quite sure quite what. In the end, you will be asked to pay double the price that they first asked for, and you can't even remember what you actually came in to buy.

Having "no inkling of an answer" is no problem, at least somebody expressed an interest. Let me share some of the data I've got and some of my uninspiring thinking about it, and perhaps something good might come of it.

A phrase using ἔξω with τά similar to what you mentioned occurs in
Antiphon (5th century BCE Attic orator), [i]On the murder of Herodes[/i] 5, 81 wrote:τοῦτο μὲν τὰ εἰς τοὺς κινδύνους ἥκοντα, τοῦτο δὲ [εἰς] τὰ ἔξω τῶν κινδύνων.
whether in times of crisis or tranquillity
And in
Aristotle (4th century BCE Attic Philospher), [i]Poetics[/i], section 1454b wrote:ἀλλὰ μηχανῇ χρηστέον [τὰς λύσεις τῶν μύθων συμβαίνειν] ἐπὶ τὰ ἔξω τοῦ δράματος,
The "god in the car" should only be used to explain what lies outside the play
It is almost what we get in
Acts 21:5b-6a (+ASB) wrote:ἐξελθόντες ἐπορευόμεθα προπεμπόντων ἡμᾶς πάντων σὺν γυναιξὶ καὶ τέκνοις ἕως ἔξω τῆς πόλεως, καὶ θέντες τὰ γόνατα ἐπὶ τὸν αἰγιαλὸν προσευξάμενοι, ἀπησπασάμεθα ἀλλήλους
with it's parenthetical - and poorly constructed - genitive absolute, assuming that they embraced the believers of Tyre not just the travelling party.

Apart from this instinctive (adjectival) usage Carl mentions, which occurs in many other places besides, ἔξω can function with a verb as an improper prepostion or as an adverb - sometimes the the adverb implies (from context) what would be written as an improper prepostion.

As per LSJ, we do have classical examples of it as an improper preposition (or postposition) with βαλεῖν, such as:[quote="Aeschylus (6th-5th centuries BCE Tragedian (Dramatist) - The "father" of tragedy), Eumenides 696-706"]Athena continues...
τὸ μήτ᾽ ἄναρχον μήτε δεσποτούμενον
ἀστοῖς περιστέλλουσι βουλεύω σέβειν,
καὶ μὴ τὸ δεινὸν πᾶν πόλεως ἔξω (postpositional improper preposition) βαλεῖν.
τίς γὰρ δεδοικὼς μηδὲν ἔνδικος βροτῶν;
τοιόνδε τοι ταρβοῦντες ἐνδίκως σέβας (700)
ἔρυμά τε χώρας καὶ πόλεως σωτήριον
ἔχοιτ᾽ ἄν, οἷον οὔτις ἀνθρώπων ἔχει,
οὔτ᾽ ἐν Σκύθῃσιν οὔτε Πέλοπος ἐν τόποις.
κερδῶν ἄθικτον τοῦτο βουλευτήριον,
αἰδοῖον, ὀξύθυμον, εὑδόντων ὕπερ (705)
ἐγρηγορὸς φρούρημα γῆς καθίσταμαι.
Neither anarchy nor tyranny—this I counsel my citizens to support and respect, and not to drive fear wholly out of the city. For who among mortals, if he fears nothing, is righteous? Stand in just awe of such majesty, [700] and you will have a defense for your land and salvation of your city, such as no man has, either among the Scythians or in Pelops' realm. I establish this tribunal, untouched by greed, worthy of reverence, quick to anger, awake on behalf of those who sleep, a guardian of the land. [Tr. Smyth (Perseus)][/quote]
Aeschylus, [i]Seven Against Thebes[/i] 1019-1025 wrote:The Herald continues...
τούτου δ᾽ ἀδελφὸν τόνδε Πολυνείκους νεκρὸν
ἔξω βαλεῖν ἄθαπτον
, ἁρπαγὴν κυσίν, (1020)
ὡς ὄντ᾽ ἀναστατῆρα Καδμείων χθονός,
εἰ μὴ θεῶν τις ἐμποδὼν ἔστη δορὶ
τῷ τοῦδ᾽:. ἄγος δὲ καὶ θανὼν κεκτήσεται
θεῶν πατρῴων, οὓς ἀτιμάσας ὅδε
στράτευμ᾽ ἐπακτὸν ἐμβαλὼν ᾕρει πόλιν. (1025)
But as for his brother, it is decreed that this corpse of Polyneices [1020] is to be cast out of the city unburied to be torn by dogs, since he would have been the destroyer of the land of the Cadmeans, if one of the gods had not used his brother's spear to prevent him. Even in death he will retain the stain of his guilt against his fathers' gods, whom he dishonored [1025] when he launched a foreign army against the city to take it.
[quote="Euripides (5th century BCE - Tragedian (Dramatist)), Medea 274-276""]ὡς ἐγὼ βραβεὺς λόγου
275τοῦδ᾽ εἰμί, κοὐκ ἄπειμι πρὸς δόμους πάλιν
πρὶν ἄν σε γαίας τερμόνων ἔξω βάλω.
I am the executor of this decree, [275] and I will not return home again until I expel you from this land.[/quote]

In some cases the adverb requires us to understand what it is referring to be outside of, as in
Diodorus Siculus (1st century BC - Greek Historian), [i]Library[/i] 13, 77, 2 wrote:διενοεῖτο δὲ ἔξω πλέων φυγεῖν
but he planned to avoid battle by sailing outside the Isles
But unlike using it with βαλεῖν, this is intransitive.

Another intransitive (nautical) example is:[quote="Herodotus (5th century BCΕ - ἱστορικός - the "father" of history), The Histories 5, 103, 2"]πλώσαντες δὲ ἐς τὸν Ἑλλήσποντον Βυζάντιόν τε καὶ τὰς ἄλλας πόλιας πάσας τὰς ταύτῃ ὑπ᾽ ἑωυτοῖσι ἐποιήσαντο, ἐκπλώσαντές τε ἔξω τὸν Ἑλλήσποντον Καρίης τὴν πολλὴν προσεκτήσαντο σφίσι σύμμαχον εἶναι:
They sailed to the Hellespont and made Byzantium and all the other cities of that region subject to themselves. Then sailing out from the Hellespont they gained to their cause the greater part of Caria, [/quote] The ἔξω is not given its own place in the translation.
Pindar (6th-5th century BCE - Poet), [i]Pythian[/i], 11, 39-40 wrote:ἤ μέ τις ἄνεμος ἔξω πλόου
ἔβαλεν, ὡς ὅτ᾽ ἄκατον εἰναλίαν;
Or did some wind throw me off course, like a skiff on the sea?
Which is also (incidently) nautical, but the object of the adverb / improper preposition πλόος "voyage" (where to sail) is mentioned.

But the following example is transitive as ἔξω βαλεῖν:
Herodotus, [i]The Histories[/i] 3, 16, 1 wrote:ἐπείτε γὰρ ἐσῆλθε ἐς τὰ τοῦ Ἀμάσιος οἰκία, αὐτίκα ἐκέλευε ἐκ τῆς ταφῆς τὸν Ἀμάσιος νέκυν ἐκφέρειν ἔξω: ὡς δὲ ταῦτα ἐπιτελέα ἐγένετο, μαστιγοῦν ἐκέλευε καὶ τὰς τρίχας ἀποτίλλειν καὶ κεντοῦν τε καὶ τἆλλα πάντα λυμαίνεσθαι.
Entering the house of Amasis, he had the body of Amasis carried outside from its place of burial; and when this had been done, he gave orders to scourge it and pull out the hair and pierce it with goads, and to desecrate it in every way.
"outside" here probably means "outside (sc. the house)".

Flavius Josephus' works are littered with ἔξω's. It is there used in the sense of "except" (sense III in LSJ). Only once with the verb βαλεῖν, and then as an improper preposition meaning "except (the (true) prophets)"
Flavius Josephus, [i]Antiquitates Judaicae[/i] 6, 327 wrote:Ἔτυχε δὲ Σαοῦλος ὁ τῶν Ἑβραίων βασιλεὺς τοὺς μάντεις καὶ τοὺς ἐγγαστριμύθους καὶ πᾶσαν τὴν τοιαύτην τέχνην ἐκ τῆς χώρας ἐκβεβληκὼς ἔξω τῶν προφητῶν.
Now Saul, the king of the Hebrews, had cast out of the country the fortune-tellers, and the necromancers, and all such as exercised the like arts, excepting the prophets.
The same idea of "excluding", but in the sense of "excluded" (deemed to be fit to be outside "outside (where they weere thought fit to belong / because they shouldn't be inside)" can be seen in
Hebrew 13:11-13 (+ASB) wrote: ὧν γὰρ “εἰσφέρεται” ζῴων “τὸ αἷμα περὶ ἁμαρτίας εἰς τὰ ἅγια” διὰ τοῦ ἀρχιερέως, τούτων τὰ σώματα “κατα καίεται ἔξω τῆς παρεμβολῆς:” διὸ καὶ Ἰησοῦς, ἵνα ἁγιάσῃ διὰ τοῦ ἰδίου αἵματος τὸν λαόν, ἔξω τῆς πύλης ἔπαθεν. τοίνυν ἐξερχώμεθα πρὸς αὐτὸν “ἔξω τῆς παρεμβολῆς,” τὸν ὀνειδισμὸν αὐτοῦ φέροντες,
For the bodies of those animals, whose blood is brought into the holy place by the high priest as an offering for sin, are burned outside of the camp. Therefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people through his own blood, suffered outside of the gate. Let us therefore go forth to him outside of the camp, bearing his reproach.
That feeling that one should not be allowed to be inside anymore, is perhaps present in
Acts 12:31b (+ABS) wrote:νῦν ὁ ἄρχων τοῦ κόσμου τούτου ἐκβληθήσεται ἔξω
Now the prince of this world will be cast out.
In
Luke 13:28b (+ASB) wrote:ὅταν ὄψησθε Ἀβραὰμ καὶ Ἰσαὰκ καὶ Ἰακὼβ καὶ πάντας τοὺς προφήτας ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ τοῦ θεοῦ, ὑμᾶς δὲ ἐκβαλλομένους ἔξω.
when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets, in the Kingdom of God, and yourselves being thrown outside.
the feeling of "excludedness" that comes through so explicitly in Josephus is evident as well.

Applying that to salt:
Luke 14:34, 35a (+ASB) wrote: Καλὸν οὖν τὸ ἅλας: ἐὰν δὲ καὶ τὸ ἅλας μωρανθῇ, ἐν τίνι ἀρτυθήσεται; οὔτε εἰς γῆν οὔτε εἰς κοπρίαν εὔθετόν ἐστιν: ἔξω βάλλουσιν αὐτό.
Where, following this particular line of excludedness, ἔξω βάλλουσιν αὐτό means in effect, "it is useless".

Assuming that being asked (told) to leave is a more polite situation than being forcibly ejected. For that, we could compare:
Acts 4:15 (+ASB) wrote:κελεύσαντες δὲ αὐτοὺς ἔξω τοῦ συνεδρίου ἀπελθεῖν συνέβαλλον πρὸς ἀλλήλους λέγοντες
But when they had commanded them to go aside out of the council, they conferred among themselves,
In less pleasant circumstances, it might have been "(ἐκ)βαλόντες δὲ αὐτους ἔ...". Perhaps, taking
Acts 9:40 (+ASB) wrote:ἐκβαλὼν δὲ ἔξω πάντας ὁ Πέτρος καὶ θεὶς τὰ γόνατα προσηύξατο
Peter put them all out, and kneeled down and prayed.
as an example, we could asssume that Luke would have written ἐκβαλόντες δὲ αὐτους ἔ... if that is what had happened. Here too ἔξω is used as an improper preposition.

Another situation, where a forcible ejection is graphicly described is:
Acts 21:30 (+ASB) wrote:ἐκινήθη τε ἡ πόλις ὅλη καὶ ἐγένετο συνδρομὴ τοῦ λαοῦ, καὶ ἐπιλαβόμενοι (getting a hold of, seizing) τοῦ Παύλου εἷλκον (they dragged) αὐτὸν ἔξω τοῦ ἱεροῦ, καὶ εὐθέως ἐκλείσθησαν αἱ θύραι.
All the city was moved, and the people ran together. They seized Paul and dragged him out of the temple. Immediately the doors were shut.
Which less graphicly would be perhaps simply ... καὶ ἐξέβαλον τὸν Παῦλον ἔξω τοῦ ἱεροῦ ...

If there is an equation between the imagery of being outside, and non-participation / excludedness in Semitic thinking, then perhaps, it is a semitic development perhaps in the language. Are there other ways to express non-participation? Yes, χωρίς (+gen.) is one, but, perhaps, it didn't have the religious / communal sense that ἔξω ((sometimes) + gen.) is trying to convey. These are Christian writings, so presumably the thought was not alien to Christianity.

But what conclusions can we draw from any of this waffling on? Perhaps none, perhaps just impressions, like the impression that a cloud leaves on a lake as it sails on overhead, and some other people are left standing alone and unwelcome ἔξω in another place.
Is there a connection between the use in Classical Greek, and the use in Jopsephus and the New Testament? Perhaps not. They seem to be different things.
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Re: ἔξω βαλεῖν v. ἐκβαλεῖν v. ἐκβαλεῖν ἔξω

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Stephen Hughes wrote:Is there a connection between the use in Classical Greek and the use in Jopsephus AND the [peculiar use in the] New Testament? Perhaps not. They seem to be different things.
That is to say that I think Flavius Josephus' use is idiomatic Greek, but the New Testament might be stretching the envelope in the direction from exclusion to excludedness not only when it is used adjectivally (as per BDAG), but also adverbially, and perhaps uses as an improper preposition may also have been affected by that.
Last edited by Stephen Hughes on May 20th, 2014, 8:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
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Re: ἔξω βαλεῖν v. ἐκβαλεῖν v. ἐκβαλεῖν ἔξω

Post by Stephen Carlson »

I would guess that the use of ἔξω with ἐκβαλεῖν would be to emphasize the result state.
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Re: ἔξω βαλεῖν v. ἐκβαλεῖν v. ἐκβαλεῖν ἔξω

Post by cwconrad »

Stephen Carlson wrote:I would guess that the use of ἔξω with ἐκβαλεῖν would be to emphasize the result state.
There's a lot of guessing going around here, isn't there? I'm not quite sure whether we're pooling knowledge or pooling ignorance. To continue on with SH's protracted simile, it's sort of like going into a shop, not knowing what you're looking for, coming out with something you're not sure that you ever really wanted, not wholly upset but also not really contented ... It's not really an ἀπορία, but better described (perhaps) as an ennui. Having checked the dictionary regarding the propriety of using that word, I behold one of those astounding, wholly unanticipated etymological notes. Voici:
ennui |änˈwē|
noun
a feeling of listlessness and dissatisfaction arising from a lack of occupation or excitement.
ORIGIN mid 18th cent.: French, from Latin mihi in odio est ‘it is hateful to me.’ Compare with annoy.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
Stephen Hughes
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Re: ἔξω βαλεῖν v. ἐκβαλεῖν v. ἐκβαλεῖν ἔξω

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Stephen Carlson wrote:I would guess that the use of ἔξω with ἐκβαλεῖν would be to emphasize the result state.
Really far from the door, or really not welcome back.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
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Re: ἔξω βαλεῖν v. ἐκβαλεῖν v. ἐκβαλεῖν ἔξω

Post by Stephen Carlson »

cwconrad wrote:
Stephen Carlson wrote:I would guess that the use of ἔξω with ἐκβαλεῖν would be to emphasize the result state.
There's a lot of guessing going around here, isn't there? I'm not quite sure whether we're pooling knowledge or pooling ignorance.
Well, yeah, but it's based on analogy with other languages. The only real question in my mind is whether this emphasis got bleached out in Koine and does not mean very much, sort of like the bleaching of diminutives in Koine.
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Re: ἔξω βαλεῖν v. ἐκβαλεῖν v. ἐκβαλεῖν ἔξω

Post by Stephen Carlson »

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Stephen Carlson wrote:I would guess that the use of ἔξω with ἐκβαλεῖν would be to emphasize the result state.
Really far from the door, or really not welcome back.
The result state is being outside.
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Re: ἔξω βαλεῖν v. ἐκβαλεῖν v. ἐκβαλεῖν ἔξω

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Stephen Carlson wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:
Stephen Carlson wrote:I would guess that the use of ἔξω with ἐκβαλεῖν would be to emphasize the result state.
Really far from the door, or really not welcome back.
The result state is being outside.
That idea breaks down in non-literal cases like these:
νῦν ὁ ἄρχων τοῦ κόσμου τούτου ἐκβληθήσεται ἔξω
Now the prince of this world will be cast out.
From where? A removal from power, perhaps. Definitely here it is more about the feeling / authority than the geographical location / position.
Luke 13:28b (+ASB) wrote:ὅταν ὄψησθε Ἀβραὰμ καὶ Ἰσαὰκ καὶ Ἰακὼβ καὶ πάντας τοὺς προφήτας ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ τοῦ θεοῦ, ὑμᾶς δὲ ἐκβαλλομένους ἔξω.
when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets, in the Kingdom of God, and yourselves being thrown outside.
This is about the feeling that leads to the weeping and gnashing of teeth
Luke 13:28a wrote:Ἐκεῖ ἔσται ὁ κλαυθμὸς καὶ ὁ βρυγμὸς τῶν ὀδόντων,
Stephen Carlson wrote:The only real question in my mind is whether this emphasis got bleached out in Koine and does not mean very much, sort of like the bleaching of diminutives in Koine.
Within this language the end (current) state is that ἔξω is alive and well in combination with ἀπό in the compound preposition ἔξω ἀπό (έξω από) (+acc.) more or less for ἐκ in the earlier period. [Μέσα και έξω από το σπίτι - "Inside the house and out"].
cwconrad wrote:
Stephen Carlson wrote:I would guess that ...
There's a lot of guessing going around here, isn't there?
Ultimately, all knowledge about language is guessing.
Last edited by Stephen Hughes on May 20th, 2014, 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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