John 15:2 καθαίρει αὐτό - ordinary or figurative language?

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Thomas Dolhanty
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Re: John 15:2 καθαίρει αὐτό - ordinary or figurative languag

Post by Thomas Dolhanty »

cwconrad wrote:Lest there be any confusion, I think it should be noted here that καθαίρειν is not a verb compounded from κατά and αἴρειν; rather it is a denominative verb derived from the root of the adjective κάθαρος; the iota in -αιρ- is a matter of vocalic metathesis of iota over the rho (καθάριω --⟩ καθαίρω. Note that the verb is augmented syllabically: ἐκάθαιρον, ἐκάθηρα).
Thanks for picking up on that Carl. I find that a bit subtle in this particular sentence because of the preceding phrase, but I should have peaked in the lexicon. It just looked so right!
Jonathan Robie wrote:Native speakers of a language have internalized the rules of the language needed to understand it. They don't usually think in terms of metalanguage and derivations and rules, but they do know the language.
No doubt that's true. It's also true that many users of the language, and especially the illiterate, children and L2 speakers, operate in the "fuzzy zone" to varying degrees of "fuzziness". And, of course, we modern students of the language know something about "fuzziness".

In this particular sentence, and being a bit lazy, I assumed the κατά qualified αἴρειν to give the sense of selective removal of deadwood. Perfectly logical (I thought) and perfectly wrong. :oops: John was probably not meaning to say that those who bear fruit are "overpowered" or "put down by force".
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Stephen Carlson
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Re: John 15:2 καθαίρει αὐτό - ordinary or figurative languag

Post by Stephen Carlson »

Jonathan Robie wrote:And if I'm not mistaken (I often am, morphology is not my strong suit), the 3rd person present singular of both verbs is καθαίρει, so you have to rely on context to disambiguate?
No, the other one is καθαιρεῖ, with the circumflex accent typical of contracted verb.

(That's why I prefer contracted lemmas, καθαίρειν vs. καθαιρεῖν. I don't think καθαιρέω properly screams "circumflect me")
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: John 15:2 καθαίρει αὐτό - ordinary or figurative languag

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Stephen Carlson wrote:
Jonathan Robie wrote:And if I'm not mistaken (I often am, morphology is not my strong suit), the 3rd person present singular of both verbs is καθαίρει, so you have to rely on context to disambiguate?
No, the other one is καθαιρεῖ, with the circumflex accent typical of contracted verb.

(That's why I prefer contracted lemmas, καθαίρειν vs. καθαιρεῖν. I don't think καθαιρέω properly screams "circumflect me")
Thanks, Stephen. (See, I told you morphology is not my strong suit ;->)
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: John 15:2 καθαίρει αὐτό - ordinary or figurative languag

Post by Stephen Hughes »

cwconrad wrote:I think it should be noted here that καθαίρειν is not a verb compounded from κατά and αἴρειν; rather it is a denominative verb derived from the root of the adjective κάθαρος; the iota in -αιρ- is a matter of vocalic metathesis of iota over the rho (καθάριω --⟩ καθαίρω. Note that the verb is augmented syllabically: ἐκάθαιρον, ἐκάθηρα).
In terms of derivation morphology, is there enough of a clear difference in meaning between καθαίρω and καθαρίζω to say that κεκαθαρμένους means "those now clean" (a state) (Byzantine text form), and κεκαθαρισμένους as "those who have undergone cleaning" (a process) (NA-UBS text form) in Hebrews 10:2 ?
Ἐπεὶ οὐκ ἂν ἐπαύσαντο προσφερόμεναι, διὰ τὸ μηδεμίαν ἔχειν ἔτι συνείδησιν ἁμαρτιῶν τοὺς λατρεύοντας, ἅπαξ κεκαθαρμένους;
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Jonathan Robie
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Re: John 15:2 καθαίρει αὐτό - ordinary or figurative languag

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Stephen Hughes wrote:In terms of derivation morphology, is there enough of a clear difference in meaning between καθαίρω and καθαρίζω to say that κεκαθαρμένους means "those now clean" (a state) (Byzantine text form), and κεκαθαρισμένους as "those who have undergone cleaning" (a process) (NA-UBS text form) in Hebrews 10:2 ?
Ἐπεὶ οὐκ ἂν ἐπαύσαντο προσφερόμεναι, διὰ τὸ μηδεμίαν ἔχειν ἔτι συνείδησιν ἁμαρτιῶν τοὺς λατρεύοντας, ἅπαξ κεκαθαρμένους;
I've been wondering the same thing for the last several days. Katabiblon says that κεκαθαρμένους is a form of καθαιρεῖν, Morpheus thinks it is a form of καθαρίζω, MorphGNT thinks it is a form of καθαρίζω.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Thomas Dolhanty
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Re: John 15:2 καθαίρει αὐτό - ordinary or figurative languag

Post by Thomas Dolhanty »

Jonathan Robie wrote: Katabiblon says that κεκαθαρμένους is a form of καθαιρεῖν,
You mean a form of καθαίρειν, right - acute accent / lexical form = καθαίρω?
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Barry Hofstetter

Re: John 15:2 καθαίρει αὐτό - ordinary or figurative languag

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Jonathan Robie wrote: I've been wondering the same thing for the last several days. Katabiblon says that κεκαθαρμένους is a form of καθαιρεῖν, Morpheus thinks it is a form of καθαρίζω, MorphGNT thinks it is a form of καθαρίζω.
κεκαρθαμένους has to be from καθαίρω. κεκαθαρισμένους has to be from καθαρίζω, despite what any parsing software claims (I'm pretty sure, Jonathan, that what you are citing above reads the former of these two text critical differences). As to the semantic distinction, I think it might be the difference between "cleansed" and "made clean..." if any distinction was perceived at all.
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Re: John 15:2 καθαίρει αὐτό - ordinary or figurative languag

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Thomas Dolhanty wrote:
Jonathan Robie wrote: Katabiblon says that κεκαθαρμένους is a form of καθαιρεῖν,
You mean a form of καθαίρειν, right - acute accent / lexical form = καθαίρω?
Ooops. Yes.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: John 15:2 καθαίρει αὐτό - ordinary or figurative languag

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Let me correct my quote to καθαίρειν before responding to Barry.
Barry Hofstetter wrote:
Jonathan Robie wrote:Katabiblon says that κεκαθαρμένους is a form of καθαίρειν
κεκαρθαμένους has to be from καθαίρω.
Did you mean κεκαθαρμένους? If so, you're agreeing with Katabiblon.
Barry Hofstetter wrote:κεκαθαρισμένους has to be from καθαρίζω, despite what any parsing software claims.
Ah, that's my problem. I was confusing these two words, which appear in different textual variants:
  • κεκαθαρμένους (Byzantine, TR)
  • κεκαθαρισμένους (Nestle1904, SBLGNT)
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
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