καὶ τοὺς πλείονας τῶν ἀδελφών ἐν κυρίῳ πεποιθότας τοῖς δεσμοῖς μου
How is ἐν κυρίῳ to be taken?
If we take it with τῶν ἀδελφών, any guesses as to motivation to use such a relatively rare collocation? What discourse reason might there be for the extra baggage of ἐν κυρίῳ when it seems looking at how ἀδελφός is used in the NT that τῶν ἀδελφών is explicit enough?
If we take it with πεποιθότας, why is it in the focal position? "the confidence most brothers have received from my imprisonment is in the Lord"? "most brothers are convinced that my imprisonment is in the Lord"?
Any thoughts?
Kimmo Huovila
Phil 1:14 ἐν κυρίῳ
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Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
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KimmoHuovila
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Phil 1:14 ἐν κυρίῳ
Last edited by Stephen Carlson on August 7th, 2011, 8:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Added Greek text to title; correct citation
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Re: Phil 1:14
Beyond it's rarity, is there a particular reason why you don't think τῶν ἀδελφών ἐν κυρίῳ is acceptable. Sure it's rare, but it's an easy enough phrase to understand--especially considering its in Paul. Here are some parallel examples:KimmoHuovila wrote:καὶ τοὺς πλείονας τῶν ἀδελφών ἐν κυρίῳ πεποιθότας τοῖς δεσμοῖς μου
How is ἐν κυρίῳ to be taken?
If we take it with τῶν ἀδελφών, any guesses as to motivation to use such a relatively rare collocation? What discourse reason might there be for the extra baggage of ἐν κυρίῳ when it seems looking at how ἀδελφός is used in the NT that τῶν ἀδελφών is explicit enough?
If we take it with πεποιθότας, why is it in the focal position? "the confidence most brothers have received from my imprisonment is in the Lord"? "most brothers are convinced that my imprisonment is in the Lord"?
Any thoughts?
Kimmo Huovila
Colossians 1:2: τοῖς ἐν Κολοσσαῖς ἁγίοις καὶ πιστοῖς ἀδελφοῖς ἐν Χριστῷ. Both phrases simply mean "Christian brothers." If you look through other noun phrases that are modified by ἐν κυρίῳ you'll see more of the same.
Like τοῖς ἁγίοις ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ in Phil 1:1.
In 1 Cor 11:11, we find ἐν κυρίῳ modifying another set of human relationships: οὔτε γυνὴ χωρὶς ἀνδρὸς οὔτε ἀνὴρ χωρὶς γυναικὸς ἐν κυρίῳ.
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KimmoHuovila
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Re: Phil 1:14
No, I do think τῶν ἀδελφών ἐν κυρίῳ is an option. I am just trying to look at the question from different points of view. Do you think the other option (ἐν κυρίῳ πεποιθότας) is dead?
Do you think in Col 1:2 ἐν Χριστῷ could go with πιστοῖς instead of ἀδελφοῖς, thus making it into less of a parallel?
Kimmo
Do you think in Col 1:2 ἐν Χριστῷ could go with πιστοῖς instead of ἀδελφοῖς, thus making it into less of a parallel?
Kimmo
MAubrey wrote:
Beyond it's rarity, is there a particular reason why you don't think τῶν ἀδελφών ἐν κυρίῳ is acceptable. Sure it's rare, but it's an easy enough phrase to understand--especially considering its in Paul. Here are some parallel examples:
Colossians 1:2: τοῖς ἐν Κολοσσαῖς ἁγίοις καὶ πιστοῖς ἀδελφοῖς ἐν Χριστῷ. Both phrases simply mean "Christian brothers." If you look through other noun phrases that are modified by ἐν κυρίῳ you'll see more of the same.
Like τοῖς ἁγίοις ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ in Phil 1:1.
In 1 Cor 11:11, we find ἐν κυρίῳ modifying another set of human relationships: οὔτε γυνὴ χωρὶς ἀνδρὸς οὔτε ἀνὴρ χωρὶς γυναικὸς ἐν κυρίῳ.
Last edited by Stephen Carlson on August 6th, 2011, 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Phil 1:14
Gotcha. I see.KimmoHuovila wrote:No, I do think τῶν ἀδελφών ἐν κυρίῳ is an option. I am just trying to look at the question from different points of view. Do you think the other option (ἐν κυρίῳ πεποιθότας) is dead?
Well, Greek does indeed allow syntactic discontinuity, but as far as I've seen, they don't look like this in the noun phrase. Noun phrase discontinuity is essentially guaranteed to be a split genitive around its head noun, not an adjective and a prepositional phrase. And in general, PP's are less likely to attach to an adjective than a noun. In fact, I *might* go as far as to say that the only time you'd see an adjective with a PP modifying it is when the adjective is the predicate of an equative clause: you're more likely to see "the brothers are faithful in Christ" over against "the faithful in Christ brothers."KimmoHuovila wrote:Do you think in Col 1:2 ἐν Χριστῷ could go with πιστοῖς instead of ἀδελφοῖς, thus making it into less of a parallel?
Last edited by Stephen Carlson on August 6th, 2011, 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Phil 1:14
Phil 1.14 (not 3.14)
πέποιθα is collocated with ἐν κυρίῳ several other times in Paul: Gal 5.10, Phil 2.24, 2 Thess 3.4. My guess is the focal position here is for emphasis, as many (but not all) commentators think. Nevertheless I would be hard put to it to explain exactly why Paul emphasizes it.
πέποιθα is collocated with ἐν κυρίῳ several other times in Paul: Gal 5.10, Phil 2.24, 2 Thess 3.4. My guess is the focal position here is for emphasis, as many (but not all) commentators think. Nevertheless I would be hard put to it to explain exactly why Paul emphasizes it.
Last edited by Stephen Carlson on August 6th, 2011, 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Phil 1:14
Actually even in that case I see the prepositional clause "in Christ" in "the brothers are faithful in Christ" to modify the verb "are" rather than "faithful". In other words: "the brothers are faithful".. how (in what way or by what means) are they faithful? "in Christ".MAubrey wrote:Well, Greek does indeed allow syntactic discontinuity, but as far as I've seen, they don't look like this in the noun phrase. Noun phrase discontinuity is essentially guaranteed to be a split genitive around its head noun, not an adjective and a prepositional phrase. And in general, PP's are less likely to attach to an adjective than a noun. In fact, I *might* go as far as to say that the only time you'd see an adjective with a PP modifying it is when the adjective is the predicate of an equative clause: you're more likely to see "the brothers are faithful in Christ" over against "the faithful in Christ brothers."KimmoHuovila wrote:Do you think in Col 1:2 ἐν Χριστῷ could go with πιστοῖς instead of ἀδελφοῖς, thus making it into less of a parallel?
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Jason Hare
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Re: Phil 1:14
What's the point of your inquiry, though? It's clear that this is a phrase relating to "Christian brothers," as Mike has already stated. I don't think there's any confusion in the construction. Paul uses similar constructions in many passages, whether he uses ἐν κυρίου or ἐν Χριστῷ or ἐν Ἰησοῦ, which are all equivalent in meaning.KimmoHuovila wrote:καὶ τοὺς πλείονας τῶν ἀδελφών ἐν κυρίῳ πεποιθότας τοῖς δεσμοῖς μου
How is ἐν κυρίῳ to be taken?
If we take it with τῶν ἀδελφών, any guesses as to motivation to use such a relatively rare collocation? What discourse reason might there be for the extra baggage of ἐν κυρίῳ when it seems looking at how ἀδελφός is used in the NT that τῶν ἀδελφών is explicit enough?
If we take it with πεποιθότας, why is it in the focal position? "the confidence most brothers have received from my imprisonment is in the Lord"? "most brothers are convinced that my imprisonment is in the Lord"?
Any thoughts?
Kimmo Huovila
Last edited by Stephen Carlson on August 6th, 2011, 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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KimmoHuovila
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Re: Phil 1:14
David,
You don't think πίστος ἐν κυρίῳ can mean 'believing in the Lord'?
Jason,
My point is to look at arguments and implications of choosing to associate ἐν κυρίῳ either with the preceding or the following. In either case they are Christian brothers, as you notice.
Tony,
Many commentators consider the word order to be for emphasis, but the problem is that emphasis is often a poorly defined category. If taken with what follows, it seems focal, as a linguistic term relating to information structure. By focal, I mean here the element that was marked as being the main new point of the sentence. This has implications to what the author was trying to communicate. To say that it is emphatic is easy, but that should only be the beginning in an attempt to explain what the author wanted to communicate by the supposed emphasis. I suspect that many commentators have not tried to really explain the emphasis or focus. Vague emphasis may be often used just as a cop-out in order not to really explain the word order. As you noticed, the reason may not be immediately clear. I try to see if there is a plausible way to read this passage connecting the ἐν κυρίῳ with what follows.
You don't think πίστος ἐν κυρίῳ can mean 'believing in the Lord'?
Jason,
My point is to look at arguments and implications of choosing to associate ἐν κυρίῳ either with the preceding or the following. In either case they are Christian brothers, as you notice.
Tony,
Many commentators consider the word order to be for emphasis, but the problem is that emphasis is often a poorly defined category. If taken with what follows, it seems focal, as a linguistic term relating to information structure. By focal, I mean here the element that was marked as being the main new point of the sentence. This has implications to what the author was trying to communicate. To say that it is emphatic is easy, but that should only be the beginning in an attempt to explain what the author wanted to communicate by the supposed emphasis. I suspect that many commentators have not tried to really explain the emphasis or focus. Vague emphasis may be often used just as a cop-out in order not to really explain the word order. As you noticed, the reason may not be immediately clear. I try to see if there is a plausible way to read this passage connecting the ἐν κυρίῳ with what follows.
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Jason Hare
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Re: Phil 1:14
But what about similar expressions throughout the Greek text? Does that not have any importance to you?KimmoHuovila wrote:Jason,
My point is to look at arguments and implications of choosing to associate ἐν κυρίῳ either with the preceding or the following. In either case they are Christian brothers, as you notice.
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Stephen Carlson
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Re: Phil 1:14
Thanks. I corrected all the titles to reflect the correct citation.Tony Pope wrote:Phil 1.14 (not 3.14)
Stephen
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Melbourne, Australia