Athematic second aorists and Voice

cwconrad
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Re: Athematic second aorists and Voice

Post by cwconrad »

Mark Lightman wrote:
David wrote:

cwconrad wrote: ... βέβαιον δὴ τοῦτό φημι· πάντως ἀθετίζω τὸ τιθέναι.

Just to clarify, τι εστιν αθετιζω και τι λεγεις βεβαιον και ου βεβαιως
χαίροις Δαυιδ!

Good questions. ἀθετίζω/ἀθετέω is "I reject as spurious," which is a good word to know when talking about Markos. βεβαιως would also work here, and you could ask the writer if he choose βέβαιον over βεβαιως for semantic or for euphonic reasons.
ἀμὴν λέγω σοι· ἐφάνη μὲν ἤδη ὁ Φώσφορος πάντα φωτίζων· ἐμοὶ δὲ τί δεῖ πλέον λέγειν; ὅ τι οὖν εἶπον; ἀγγλιστί· "I make this assertion for sure: I reject the verb τιθέναι altogether." But as Juvenal might say, "Who's going to parse the parsers themselves?"
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
Mark Lightman
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Re: Athematic second aorists and Voice

Post by Mark Lightman »

Carl wrote: ἐμοὶ δὲ τί δεῖ πλέον λέγειν; ὅ τι οὖν εἶπον;
I would take the ὅ τι here not as a relative
What else do I need to say? (Is it not) the very thing I have said?
but as an interrogative (see BDF)
What else do I need to say? Why, therefore, did I say anything?!?
The augment here does not really grammaticalize time, but rather what Porter calls “remoteness” in the narrative.


Carl translated himself thus
βέβαιον δὴ τοῦτό φημι
"I make this assertion for sure:
Hi, Carl,

I must respectfully disagree. This is not what you meant. You did not mean the βέβαιον adverbally, but as a substantive adjective in fronted apposition to τοῦτο. The meaning of what you wrote is not “I make this assertion for sure,” but rather “I say this as a certainty.”

:D :twisted:
cwconrad
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Re: Athematic second aorists and Voice

Post by cwconrad »

ἠρώτησεν ὁ Κάρλος· "Who will parse the parsers themselves?" ὁ δὲ Φώσφορος, "ἔγωγε" ἀπεκρίθη. ναί, φίλε Φώσφορε, ἀλλ’ ὅμως φοβοῦμαι μὴ σκότος ἤνεγκας μᾶλλον ἢ φῶς. τίς οἶδεν ὅ τι ἐβουλόμην λέγειν εἰ μὴ αὐτός; τί οὖν; τίς κρινεῖ αὐτοὺς τοὺς κρίνοντας; εὐλαβοῦ, συμβουλεύω σοι. γέγραπται γὰρ· "ἐὰν δὲ ὁ ὀφθαλμός σου πονηρὸς ᾖ, ὅλον τὸ σῶμά σου σκοτεινὸν ἔσται. εἰ οὖν τὸ φῶς τὸ ἐν σοὶ σκότος ἐστίν, τὸ σκότος πόσον." ἅλις δὴ τούτων· ἃ γέγραφα γέγραφα.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
David Lim
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Joined: June 6th, 2011, 6:55 am

Re: Athematic second aorists and Voice

Post by David Lim »

cwconrad wrote:ἠρώτησεν ὁ Κάρλος· "Who will parse the parsers themselves?" ὁ δὲ Φώσφορος, "ἔγωγε" ἀπεκρίθη. ναί, φίλε Φώσφορε, ἀλλ’ ὅμως φοβοῦμαι μὴ σκότος ἤνεγκας μᾶλλον ἢ φῶς. τίς οἶδεν ὅ τι ἐβουλόμην λέγειν εἰ μὴ αὐτός; τί οὖν; τίς κρινεῖ αὐτοὺς τοὺς κρίνοντας; εὐλαβοῦ, συμβουλεύω σοι. γέγραπται γὰρ· "ἐὰν δὲ ὁ ὀφθαλμός σου πονηρὸς ᾖ, ὅλον τὸ σῶμά σου σκοτεινὸν ἔσται. εἰ οὖν τὸ φῶς τὸ ἐν σοὶ σκότος ἐστίν, τὸ σκότος πόσον." ἅλις δὴ τούτων· ἃ γέγραφα γέγραφα.
Haha.. εμοι δε το γεγραμμενον εν τη γραφη ου περι τουτου εστιν αλλα περι του διδοναι τοις πτωχοις καθως ειπεν ο ιησους ει ο οφθαλμος σου πονηρος εστιν οτι εγω αγαθος ειμι ως και γεγραπται εν δευτερονομιον 15:9 λεγων προσεχε σεαυτω μη γενηται ρημα κρυπτον εν τη καρδια σου ανομημα λεγων εγγιζει το ετος το εβδομον ετος της αφεσεως και πονηρευσηται ο οφθαλμος σου τω αδελφω σου τω επιδεομενω και ου δωσεις αυτω και βοησεται κατα σου προς κυριον και εσται εν σοι αμαρτια μεγαλη
Just my thought. :)
δαυιδ λιμ
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